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I was looking around and notice that low constitution monsters usually are ugly (like skeletons) after all low constitution make you ugly, right?

So, it's that a case where Charisma can be influenced by Constitution ? Like i say below, "...physical attractiveness, persuasiveness, and personal magnetism. A generally non-beautiful character can have a very high charisma due to strong measures of the other two aspects of charisma."

Considering a PC/NPC with low/normal skills in persuasion and normal personal magnetism PLUS a low constitution (like 8 or 6 or even below that) should i drop his charisma ?

Wikipedia says:

Constitution (CON): Constitution is a term which encompasses the character's physique, toughness, health and resistance to disease and poison. The higher a character's Constitution, the more hit points that character will have. Constitution also is important for Fortitude saves, the Concentration skill, and fatigue-based general checks. Constitution also determines the duration of a barbarian's rage. Unlike the other ability scores, which render the character unconscious or immobile when they hit 0, having 0 Constitution is fatal.

Charisma (CHA): Charisma is the measure of the character's combined physical attractiveness, persuasiveness, and personal magnetism. A generally non-beautiful character can have a very high charisma due to strong measures of the other two aspects of charisma. Charisma influences how many spells spontaneous arcane spellcasters (like sorcerers and bards) can cast per day, and the effectiveness of said spells. It also affects Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Perform, and Use Magic Device checks, how often and how effectively clerics and paladins can turn undead, the wild empathy of druids and rangers, and a paladin's lay on hands ability."

I'm not looking for a debate about this, just a clear answer if possible.

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Why does he have low constitution? Why does he have average charisma? –  AceCalhoon Oct 25 '11 at 17:12
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What do you mean when you say, "After all low constitution make you ugly, right?" Constitution score and appearance (or the appearance aspect of Charisma score) are not related. –  mghicks Oct 25 '11 at 21:50
    
I like this idea. I designed game a few years back where there was a close relationship - both beauty and constitution were a pair of attributes that were jointly dependent on RQ-style POW (spiritual force) and SIZ (natural size), with another two pairs of tied attributes influenced by INT and either POW or SIZ. I never got the system into a shape I wanted to inflict on players, though. –  Alticamelus Oct 26 '11 at 13:19
    
@mghicks like i said in my post, lots of low constitution NPC are ugly (Like skeletons) and i mentioned a low constitution sample as 8 6 or even lower, so i am not saying people like someone with a cancer... –  Michel Ayres Oct 27 '11 at 13:28
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6 Answers

up vote 17 down vote accepted

I wouldn't tie the two together. D&D has a fairly small number of basic stats (like Constitution and Charisma), so it's interesting to see what different combinations of high and low scores mean.

Someone with low constitution might not be able to run for long, or they might be rather frail, or they might just get sick a lot. Someone with high charisma might be very persuasive, or very good looking, or a great leader. These are not mutually exclusive ideas.

Here are some ideas for people with very low constitution and very high charisma:

  • an old and respected stage actor with a commanding presence (think Christopher Lee)
  • a beautiful model who's just too thin (think just about any supermodel)
  • a fun, friendly, fat guy (think Dom DeLuise)
  • a respected leader who's dying of some disease (think Steve Jobs in the last year)

So if you have a PC with low to normal skills in persuasion and personal magnetism, give them a low to normal charisma score. There's no reason to tie it to their charisma.

GMNoob, thanks for suggesting Steve Jobs for this list.

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In the past year I think Steve Jobs would be a good example of someone with obviously low consitution and huge charisma. –  GMNoob Oct 25 '11 at 18:58
    
very well pointed. Thanks =) –  Michel Ayres Oct 27 '11 at 13:22
    
PS: I loved the examples that you made xD –  Michel Ayres Oct 27 '11 at 13:34
    
I think Dom DeLuise would have had a high (or at least average) constitution. Constitution is about more than just your ability to run. –  Chad Oct 28 '11 at 14:30
    
@Chad, I'm thinking of all the health difficulties he had, running aside. –  Joe Oct 28 '11 at 15:44
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Constitution doesn't measure physical attractiveness. Even so, a Charisma score represents how charismatic the character is now, not what they would be if they were better looking. Cha 18 / Con 3 is a valid combination, as is Cha 3 / Con 18.

Skeletons in fact lack a Constitution score entirely, rather than having a low Constitution, as they're undead. Skeletons also have a Charisma score of 1, but that's because they're mindless, not because they have no Constitution. Some undead have a very high Charisma score: nightwalkers have Charisma 18, liches get +2 to the base creature's Charisma score, and ghosts and vampires get +4.

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No constitution does not. BUT if it's low (i mean really low) the PC/NPC usually are ugly (like skeletons in my post) –  Michel Ayres Oct 27 '11 at 13:23
    
Btw, you are right about the high charisma in reverse of low constitution. i pick @Joe answer but you are quite right too. Thanks again for the reply with this good information. (I can't vote UP sorry) –  Michel Ayres Oct 27 '11 at 13:32
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You are also ignoring high constitution/low charisma situations:

  • Many bodybuilders: Lots of Str and Con, but not exactly persuasive, and have distorted their bodies heavily.

  • Golems

  • Orcs, Half-orcs
  • Dwarves
  • A significant number of NHL enforcer types, with the obvious exception of Tie Domi.
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I got to the NHL reference and thought "this poster has GOT to be Canadian" and you are! –  cr0m Oct 26 '11 at 6:02
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Body builders are not always healthy. Getting muscles ripped for shows is a pretty harsh strain on the body. –  Alticamelus Oct 26 '11 at 13:21
    
@Canageek true, i don't mentioned this variant in my question, because i didn't want mess a little more with the question that could be messy enough =) Thanks for comment about it anyway xD –  Michel Ayres Oct 27 '11 at 13:30
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CHR != Pretty

I've always been frustrated by the general idea the "physical beauty" aspect of CHR is so often emphasized over the "persuasiveness" and "magnetism" facets.

For your consideration, many "ugly" people would have a very high CHR: [taken from http://ty.rannosaur.us/10-famously-ugly-people/]:

Socrates: 'Credited as one of the founders of Western philosophy, Socrates was also well known for his piggish features.'

Ugly Socrates

Attila the Hun: 'Practically unstoppable, Attila almost wiped out Western civilization ... he looked more like Shrek. Passages from history describe an extremely short man, built like an ogre, who so hideous that he was “human and yet not.”'

Ugly Attila

Jean-Paul Marat: Considered to be one of the most important men in French history, Marat was best known for his rabble rousing journalism during the French Revolution ... spent most of his time in a bathtub to get relief from a bunch of skin diseases he picked up while hiding in the French sewer system.

Read the entire post for the full list.

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+1 for the pics and nice comments =) –  Michel Ayres Mar 7 '12 at 22:56
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No.

They are independent ability scores. In the case of monsters, their overall stats are usually set "to taste" by the designer to fit the creature's concept, and there's no rule (or even suggested guideline) about CON and CHA of monsters being related.

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Concur. The basic problem the original supplicant is running into is that game stats are an approximation modeling a subset of reality for simplicity's sake. –  Shadur Nov 28 '11 at 14:23
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I think the two can work hand-in-hand to a point, but typically they are separate. At one time, we split our stats in two. For example charisma was something like comeliness and leadership. We had play within the numbers. We roll the primary stat then we could choose within points what the secondary stat would be. So if I had a 16 charisma, I could pic a 14 comeliness and 18 leadership (if I recall correctly). Be to honest, I don't remember most of the rules we had anymore and this was in a 2e world. But I seem to recall that constitution/health and charisma/comeliness would work together somehow.

It all comes down to how you want to do it. Try it. Either work with the players or secretly try it.

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I think you're thinking of the stuff in 2e AD&D in Player's Option: Skills and Powers: amazon.com/Players-Option-Fantasy-Roleplaying-Rulebook/dp/… –  Cthos Oct 26 '11 at 15:38
    
Very well could be. That was what, 8+ years ago? –  Mike Wills Oct 26 '11 at 16:24
    
13 or so, I think. –  Cthos Oct 26 '11 at 16:43
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