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I have been leading by example and using enemies and custom monsters to show off combat strategies and builds to my players. This has worked pretty well so far – my players have been much more receptive to these demonstrations than when I just give them build advice, and they've adopted some combos I've demoed.

The next combination I was intending to demo is Improved Trip, Combat Reflexes, and Elusive Target with the Spiked Chain, but it seems very synergetic, and possibly broken. Is this combo as overpowered as it seems? Does it have notable weaknesses or drawbacks? I'd like to get a reality check before I pit my players against it.

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Also, after reading some other posts, of course I realize that starting as a Goliath (Powerful Build - Races of Stone) increases the build, as would other size bonuses... – Jonny Delirium Jul 30 '12 at 7:08
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While not a direct answer as the build is slightly different, this question brings to mind this: giantitp.com/comics/oots0216.html – Lunin Jul 30 '12 at 7:13
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Most of this question is you talking about how cool something is, which is great, but it's not relevant to your question about those features. And I'm not sure what you're actually asking about them - as in your question doesn't seem to make any sense. You're asking whether there's a reason they should not be overpowered as they seem... I suppose what you're actually asking is: "This combination seems really overpowered for pitting against players. Is it?" - is that the case? – Jonathan Hobbs Jul 30 '12 at 8:21
Hey Jonny, welcome to RPG.SE. Please check over our faq. As it stands this question seems more like an open discussion than a focused question people can answer - could you edit it to make it more clear what you need help with exactly? – mxyzplk♦ Jul 30 '12 at 13:05
I've overhauled the question. Revert or re-edit as necessary. – SevenSidedDie Jul 30 '12 at 22:21

3 Answers

up vote 3 down vote

I've played a fighter character up to level 6 with Improved Trip, Combat Reflexes, and a spiked chain. I wasn't overly impressed with the setup. It looks great on paper until you spend all of those attack actions on trip attempts that are straight opposed checks against the enemy's Str or Dex, whichever is higher. Granted, my fighter had a well above-average strength score, but it wasn't other-worldly, so my trip attempts had roughly a 70% chance of success against a foe with no better than average strength and dex. It isn't too often that you get to stand toe-to-toe with an enemy that is average in both of those stats (otherwise that enemy would likely not want to be in melee range with you), so the trip attempts were largely a 50/50 shot. That is far, far worse, than the success rate of just a normal attack, to the point of being very depressing and wasting so many actions on failed attacks.

As for Combat Reflexes with a spiked chain, the extra reach with the chain really enhanced the ability to do attacks of opportunity. However, against any type of smart enemy, one successful lash of the chain on an attack of opportunity severely discouraged other enemies from coming within even the extended range of my character's position, unless the terrain dictated a more close quarters fight. Also, if there are other melee-range allies nearby, smart enemies often could use them as soft cover to avoid provoking my attacks of opportunity at an extended range.

So, all-in-all, the style points are pretty cool, but the practical application of tripping everyone with a spiked chain, even on frequent extended range attacks of opportunity just didn't work out very well.

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up vote 1 down vote

You didn't mention what level your party is at, which is going to be a factor.

As for 'overly powerful', that'll depend on your party. That kind of combo is a huge disadvantage for melee-based characters and pretty much no disadvantage at all for ranged characters. If your melee-based party members are clerics or druids, go for it, they're plenty powerful and versatile anyway. If your melee-based party members are fighters/rogues/anybody who isn't a primary spell caster, then you're just piling extra hassles on the weaker PCs.

In terms of CR, any foe that you put an iota of thought into is dramatically tougher than default monsters. If you're throwing a smart feat/class build on something with a really impressive stat block, your effective CR is going to be quite a bit higher than the by-the-book listing. See for example any dragon that can cast Antimagic Field.

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I read from this question that you don't have a counter for that?

Ranged characters. Someone with a big stick may fear someone with a bigger stick, if they're both well trained. Also, can't go wrong with some darkness and/or obscuring mist, or even put them into a forest. I disagree that the spiked chain is piercing, it seems more slashing to me, which if you house-ruled that then underwater combat would work well.

Pitting your players against anything in the available books is fair game, since they had the option to do that from the start. However, I've noticed when playtesting that any monster I hand-craft is notably more difficult than others of its kind, so I up the CR by one just for that reason. If I change its feats, this is especially noteworthy.

There's nothing wrong with feats being synergistic. It's called building a character.

One more question to factor into yours: Is this a finale, a major soldier, or just a grunt that they'll be fighting?

Usually in my game, I save the really sweet tactics for the big guns because they're so effective. A melee against goblins becomes much worse when each of them is disarming the characters, every time every combat. Gotta balance :) Remember as a DM you get to show off tons of creativity, not just the combat aspect. Gotta let the PCs shine too, they're helping make your world.

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"I disagree that the spiked chain is piercing, it seems more slashing to me ..." Well it is piercing. It's used to smack someone with a whole bunch of spikes. Every spiked weapon does piercing damage (even morning stars, which bludgeon with the club and pierce with their spikes). Also, you go on to mention underwater combat but you never say what that would have to do with underwater combat. – Jonathan Hobbs Jul 31 '12 at 3:13
Still seems it would slash. I'm not going to lay a chain against someone, I'm going to whirl it and slice with it. Also, just becase WOTC says it does this type of damage doesn't mean it always matches up. Why do morningstars deal B+P but spiked shields only deal piercing? Just my opinion on that, I'm no specialist. As far as underwater combat - piercing weapons don't take the penalty nonpiercing weapons do underwater. So a piercing spiked chain is wielded as effectively as a trident using underwater rules. – LitheOhm Jul 31 '12 at 23:23
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Think about the way you'd attack. A spiked chain is essentially an elongated morning star, without the weight sufficient to bludgeon. You swing the chain around to slam the spikes along the side of the chain into an enemy. The chain certainly has a long slashing motion, but the chain isn't the weapon, the spikes are - and they don't slash; they hit like a morning star would and pierce. You could then tear the spikes out sideways, and that's a trait shared by any piercing weapon, but they don't slash the way a scimitar or axe can. – Jonathan Hobbs Jul 31 '12 at 23:34
I was thinking more long spikes on a chain, more like the chain-and-dagger approach but after googling "spiked chain" I can see this is not the common interpretation. I figured the spikes on the chain were the weapon, but the motion of them would be more sufficient to slash. It seemed to make more sense than using a spiked chain like a tentacle, especially with multiple attacks in six seconds. However, what you say holds merit so I concede that point. – LitheOhm Aug 1 '12 at 0:17
The actual motion of a spiked chain should be a rotate-and-release one, punching people in their stomachs (like with a slikg - the David and Goliath type - but with a heavy projectile tied to a chain so you can retrieve it. Spikes should be on the head of the weight.) – Zachiel Aug 11 '12 at 21:11

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