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What I mean is, in the Hierarchy of Sins against Humanity there are entries for "manslaughter", for "murder". However, one might argue that the Kindred are already dead. So, would you argue that causing the Final Death of another Cainite constitute murder? What if the victim is a wight (i.e., a vampire with a Humanity/Path rating of 0, therefore arguably a mindless beast)?

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4 Answers 4

up vote 17 down vote accepted

I would say yes, killing another vampire calls for a degeneration roll and may lead to the loss of Humanity.

Vampires (on the path of Humanity, which we're concerned with here) consider themselves, or at least try to consider themselves (at least partially) human - that is what's reflected by their Humanity score. If a vampire strictly and unquestionably believed that vampires are completely dead as humans, said vampire would have to apply the very same thought to herself too, ie. consider herself dead as a human as well. Were she able to do so, it would mean she would have no Humanity left in her either at all (Humanity: 0.) (Once again, we're dealing with vampires on the Path of Humanity only here.)

As for destroying a vampire with a Humanity/Path rating of 0: I think vampire characters have no means of learning the Humanity score noted on the character sheet of a PC or an NPC. They might very well consider said vampire to be a madman, an utter degenerate worse than the worst of humanity... yet they would consider the vampire in question to be a mad, utterly degenerate... human+Beast combination (see the previous paragraph.) And killing a human, even if that human is a walking horror, may lead to the loss of your own Humanity (as you're getting closer to accepting and utilizing the horror's methods... even if to eliminate the horror.)

If the would-be destroyers somehow gained certain, unquestionable, in-game proof of some other vampire's zero Humanity rating and they gained similarly rock solid proof about the impossibility of vampiric redemption (your ST discarded Golconda?), they could probably kill the zero Humanity vampire without risking losing Humanity for the act. But I highly doubt such proof would be available in the stories of most Storytellers.

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How about the treatment wights receive in Sins of Blood? I mean, they ARE called "mindless Cainites" in an In-Character description. –  Andrea Colonna Sep 15 '12 at 17:05
As I've said, if the PCs (not the players!) can be utterly sure there's no hope of redemption for the wights, they may get an easier roll (as if they killed a shark plaguing a beach, for example) or may not have to roll at all. It's up to the Storyteller. –  OpaCitiZen Sep 15 '12 at 17:21
Btw, I do not have "Sins of (the?) Blood", but judging solely from your summary even the in-game description of the wights support my view (2nd paragraph of my answer): they are still called "Cainites", ie. considered the same as other vampires only utterly mad. Is the character you quoted an obvious, known source of infallible truth (ie. something like a divinely proven prophet of God or something)? If so, and if the PCs truly believe his (or her) truth, they may be spared the Humanity loss. –  OpaCitiZen Sep 15 '12 at 17:27
Yeah, of course I was talking about Sins of THE Blood, but I ran out of time to fix that by editing. Anyway I was just asking this question as a gedankenexperiment, that's why I'm looking for cornercases. In a way, I figure that whether it's right to kill a wight is just like the issue of whether euthanasia is right, except there's an awful lot of bloodshed involved. So, yeah, I guess it's one of those questions better answered with the Golden Rule and a careful look to the theme and mood of the specific chronicle. –  Andrea Colonna Sep 16 '12 at 1:31

What would make killing a vampire do to the character mind?

Could the character feel remorse for killing a sentient being with feelings, memories, and its own motivations?

Would an innocent mind be affected after that kill?

If the answer is yes (I think that way), the character must make a degeneration roll to see how much innocent he preserves.

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Welcome to the site, Flamma! I'm upvoting your answer because it give the asker a way to consider the answer, and is therefore useful. However, on RPG.SE, we generally look for solid, canonical answers from either rules or experience. Please check out our FAQ - but we are glad you are here and hope to see you back again! –  gomad Oct 11 '12 at 19:28

I think the answer is actually a bit more complex than this. Does final deathing a vampire save others? Is the target vampire killing a lot of humans or causing significant human misery? Id adjudge that more as impassioned violation than murder.

Consider the consequences of non-intervention. If the enemy is incredibly powerful, there's little to blame a PC for not acting immediately (survival, risk of breaking the masquarade, etc).

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How cruel a ST do you want to be. And how "Humane" is the killer. If he had a humanity of say 10 and it was me he would have to make a degeneration check. However I know some ST where it would be perfectly fine. Also If you don't want him to lose humanity or you do and he passes the check then you can always have the Prince call a Blood Hunt for the killer. Thus solving the humanity issue. Unless of course the PC is more powerful than the Prince. Not likely but possible.

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