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We play a mainly Pathfinder system. Sometimes pure .. sometimes with feats and such from 3.5 but conflicts follow the Pathfinder rules.

A Mystic Theurgy (pathfinder prestige class) in our Thursday party pointed out that with scribe scroll he could create a divine scroll of Bull Strength and then scribe it into his spell book so that he could learn it as arcane as well. Now I am sure I remembered a rule saying that mages cannot use clerical scrolls and visa versa but when I read the Pathfinder core rule book it says nothing about that so my memory might be from 3.5.

Can anyone clarify what the rules in Pathfinder are for scroll use? Can a mage use a clerical scroll in this way.

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To me this question boils down to: Are the divine and arcane versions of a spell the same spell, or simple 2 spells with identical effects? – Colin D Oct 2 '12 at 20:45
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@ColinD Historically (i.e., in AD&D) they've been explicitly two different spells that happen to have the same effect. d20 is much less clear on the matter. – SevenSidedDie Oct 2 '12 at 21:42
Hi, Duncan, welcome to the site! +1 for an interesting question; I'd never thought of this exploit but I'll be adapting these answers for my campaign. – Tynam Oct 2 '12 at 23:06

4 Answers

up vote 1 down vote

Unless otherwise specified, a wizard can only copy spells to his spellbook that are on the Wizard spell list.

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Further, I'd houserule that if a spell is on both lists, there is a big difference between "Great [God], give me a bull's strength" and "Abra-cadabra, give me a bull's strength". – Pulsehead Oct 2 '12 at 17:43
Hello, Steve, and welcome to the site! Could you expand on this answer? What you say is true, but doesn't cover the case here where the spell is on both the Wizard and Cleric spell lists. The question is whether it can be made as a (cleric) scroll and then immediately copied as a (wizard) spell. – Tynam Oct 2 '12 at 23:04
up vote 1 down vote

No, the arcane caster cannot learn/use divine spells.

Citation from the scroll casting section:

To have any chance of activating a scroll spell, the scroll user must meet the following requirements.

  • The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his class.)
  • The user must have the spell on her class list.
  • The user must have the requisite ability score.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/scrolls

now the one Steve G. mentioned.

A wizard can only learn new spells that belong to the wizard spell lists.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic#TOC-Adding-Spells-to-a-Wizard-s-Spellbo

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The point is that Bull's Strength is on the wizard list, and a mystic theurge can use both arcane and divine scrolls. I don't think this answer addresses the question at all. – starwed Oct 2 '12 at 18:29
Actually I think this section answers my question and gives a very clear section in the rules to point to. A wizard cannot normally use a clerical scroll even if it is on his spell list. – Duncan Oct 3 '12 at 17:09
up vote 6 down vote

At first, I agreed with the other answers, but a careful reading of the rules relating to adding a spell to a wizard's spellbook makes me believe that, by RAW, what your player suggests is correct.

This is mainly from two points:

  1. Bull's Strength is a 2nd level wizard spell, so it exists on the Wizard spell list.
  2. There is no mention in the spellbook scribing rules of having to meet the scroll's prerequisites.

Adding spells to a wizard's spellbook

There are only 3 restrictions listed in the above link:

  1. The spell must be on the Wizard class spell list.
  2. The Wizard must 'understand' the scroll (which he automatically does, since he scribed it).
  3. The Wizard must study the scroll for an hour and make a successful spellcraft check.

As long as those three requirements are met, the Wizard can begin the scribing process. This wouldn't work for scrolls of Cure Light Wounds, or other spells that aren't on the Wizard spell list, but for Bull's Strength it should work without a problem.

In addition, this isn't really a powerful tactic. At most, the player is saving the gold price of half a scroll, and is getting assured access to some spells. Honestly, I can't think of a rules or balance reason not to allow this. It's not much more powerful than allowing wizards in the party to share spells out of their spellbooks.

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As additional ammunition, regular wizards can decipher and understand clerical scrolls even if they didn't create them, they simply can't cast them. "Divine spells can be written and deciphered like arcane spells (see Arcane Magical Writings). A Spellcraft check can decipher divine magical writing and identify it. Only characters who have the spell (in its divine form) on their class spell list can cast a divine spell from a scroll." – starwed Oct 2 '12 at 18:42
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Since the act performed is 'copying scroll into his spellbook', wouldn't this mean he has a copy of the divine version of the spell? – Colin D Oct 2 '12 at 20:43
-1 originally I did like your answer, but as put in a different answer - the RAW says no. To fudge would likely be a call I might make for time's sake, but in order to clarify rules as the question desires it's not allowable. One slide leads into many others – LitheOhm Oct 2 '12 at 20:47
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@ColinD There is no "divine" version of the spell by the RAW. A spell can be cast by arcane or divine spellcasters, and it can be written down through arcane or divine writing, but the rules don't support any distinctions other than those. A wizard with Bull's Strength can still counterspell a cleric's attempt to cast it -- both of them are casting the same spell, even if the components and methods might differ. – starwed Oct 2 '12 at 21:49
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@deltree Technically, if you find a scroll of Bull's Strength "in the wild", it has to be either arcane or divine. Which it is can be discovered through the normal deciphering process. – DuckTapeal Oct 4 '12 at 0:20
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up vote 8 down vote

Usually, the answer is no. They don't make a big deal about the difference between arcane and divine spells, but there is one, and if you read

Adding Spells to a Wizard's Spellbook

A wizard can also add a spell to his book whenever he encounters one on a magic scroll or in another wizard's spellbook. No matter what the spell's source, the wizard must first decipher the magical writing (see Arcane Magical Writings).

And Arcane Magical Writings

To decipher an arcane magical writing (such as a single spell in another's spellbook or on a scroll), a character must make a Spellcraft check (DC 20 + the spell's level).

You will notice that it says "arcane magical writings" specifically. This means "not divine." So you can not use this procedure to put a divine spell in your spellbook. Even though the spell may be, in the abstract, on your spell list, you have in hand a divine scroll not an arcane scroll.

This should be pretty obvious from precedent from say all other versions of D&D.

Now, the Mystic Theurge is a slightly special case because the whole point of that class is to blur the lines between arcane and divine magic. However, even they do not treat divine magic as arcane or vice versa. This p-class is significatly simplified in Pathfinder and is pretty elegant, what it does is

A mystic theurge can prepare and cast spells from one of his spellcasting classes using the available slots from any of his other spellcasting classes. Spells prepared or cast in this way take up a slot one level higher than they originally occupied.

So your mystic theurge can't do anything with that divine scroll except cast it. He can prepare a bunch of Bull's Strengths using his wizard (or whatever) slots and then a bunch using his cleric (or whatever) slots. In fact, if his divine class is something weird that doesn't have Bull's Strength, he could use 3rd level slots from it to prepare arcane Bull's Strengths. Heck, he could do that anyway with the spell on his list if he felt the need to have about 20 bull's strengths in a given day (all 2nd level arcane slots, all 2nd level divine slots, all 3rd level arcane slots for divine ones, all 3rd level divine slots for arcane ones).

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The catch is that "Divine spells can be written and deciphered like arcane spells (see Arcane Magical Writings)". So although a wizard cannot cast from a divine scroll, they can still decipher it -- whether it was intended that she can then learn the spell from such a scroll I'd say is unclear from the text. – starwed Oct 2 '12 at 20:00
Hmm, let me clarify my point. If the rules said "No matter what the spell's source, the wizard must first decipher the magical writing (see the rules on deciphering magical writing)", then it would be ambiguous. But if that was their intent, they'd still have to actually refer to it as Arcane Magical Writings, because that's where the general rules are located, even for non-arcane writing. – starwed Oct 2 '12 at 20:07
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+1 I side with your answer. While the theurge blurs the line, they don't break it. There's distinction between divine and arcane for a reason - and the spells are not necessarily identical in their components or verbose, despite having identical effects. – LitheOhm Oct 2 '12 at 20:44
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@starwed, "written and deciphered like" means in the same manner - not interchangeably with. If one were to say that arcane spontaneous casting works "like" divine spontaneous casting, that doesn't mean suddenly all arcane spontaneous casters can cast divine spells. You're making a connection not logically supported. – mxyzplk♦ Oct 2 '12 at 22:35
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@mxyzplk That's not what I'm saing (and was why I added a clarification) -- I'm picking a bone with this specific step in your line of argument: "You will notice that it says 'arcane magical writings' specifically. This means 'not divine'." The only place that the text on wizards learning spells specifically calls out an arcane source is by reference to a section; and I showed above why such a reference alone doesn't imply what you claim. – starwed Oct 2 '12 at 23:18
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