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My friend and I are playing D&D 3.5 and I want to change from being a Lawful Good Paladin. My DM will allow me to make him fall if I make it look good and choose a new class that's fit for a fallen Paladin.

I already have a story or quest for his fall but I don't really know what class he should change to. He's going to be True Neutral, but for him, anything goes for revenge.The reason he isn't going to become Evil is he will only do evil acts for his revenge but will help anyone in dire need.

My Paladin is human and ambidextrous, has dual wield mastery for longswords and wears modified half plate amour for freedom of movement. He has lost all faith in gods and religion and will be the main melee for the party and the role as leader of it. His new mission in life is the destruction of his former religion's army for the deaths of his family and home town.

What class(es) would be appropriate for this? I can change feats but not items. He's level 18 and Items are 1 full suit of modified half plate with a +5 to movement and reflex saves, 2 reinforced steel longswords Enchanted to +4 and to turn undead that are under my level. They are the combat items and level I will have at the beginning of new campaign arc.

Books allowed:

  • PHB I, DMG
  • Complete Warrior
  • Complete Scoundrel
  • Complete Adventurer
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@ Brian Ballsun-Stanton what do you mean by Items? I'll be able use all but the ones give to me by his former religion which are a ring and pendent and the breast plate of his armor –  user8053 Apr 22 '13 at 1:14
Basically, what magic items and level do you have? It changes our answers, especially if you're not allowed to change. –  Brian Ballsun-Stanton Apr 22 '13 at 1:17
Ambidextrous is not a thing in 3.5. Not aware of any Dual Wield Mastery, either. Can you clarify? –  KRyan Apr 22 '13 at 2:10
@ KRyan I just asked my DM if my guy could be Ambidextrous and dual wield and he said yes and made it work with rules of the game as far as I remember I attack faster but have have weak block compared to using sword and shield or using a sword two handed –  user8053 Apr 22 '13 at 3:03
When using that @ symbol, put the name right after it - don't put that space there. If you say @KRyan (no space), he gets a notification saying you responded to his comment. If you say @ KRyan (with a space), nothing happens. Those notifications are the reason we use the @ thing here - but it only works if you use it right :) –  doppelgreener Apr 22 '13 at 4:06

2 Answers 2

Urban Ranger

Given your obsession with your former organization and your focus on dual-wielding longswords, the Urban Ranger variant seems like the best fit for you:

At the game master's discretion, an urban ranger may select an organization instead of a creature type as his favored enemy. For example, a character might select a particular thieves' guild, merchant house, or even the city guard. The favored enemy bonuses would apply to all members of the chosen organization, regardless of their creature type or subtype.

You can take your old church as your favoured enemy, and focus on being a meleer spinning about with two swords. If that variant isn't allowed, you can simply take Ranger with a favoured enemy of whatever type of humanoid is most prevalent in your church.

If you can request more books, I would recommend Warblade from Tome of Battle or Marshal from the Miniatures Handbook.

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+1 for urban ranger flavor. –  LitheOhm Apr 22 '13 at 3:18
I've been going back and forth on this for a while, but ultimately I don't like this answer. This should be a good answer. The ranger is supposed to be ideal here, but the class fails its execution. Favored Enemy/Organization offers really small bonuses. He already has Two-Weapon Fighting so the combat style doesn't help. The Core spells for the Ranger are pretty weak, and too-little, too-late. I just don't think it delivers what it promises, or much of anything else for that matter, and I don't think it's a good fit. I'm not voting, but I think the comment is worth considering. –  KRyan Apr 22 '13 at 16:36
Completely agree, @kyran, but failing the class on execution is kind of moot in context of the question. Querent is looking for thematic match, not mechanical awesome. And FE (org) works if your campaign revolves around it. ::shrug:: –  Brian Ballsun-Stanton Apr 23 '13 at 11:59


The Avenger is literally a nonchaotic-instead-of-evil version of the core Assassin, but it’s pretty perfect for your character. It gets Sneak Attack, which works well with dual wielding, some pretty solid spells (though much better if you have Spell Compendium), and full-BAB. The fluff is basically something like the Assassins of Assassin’s Creed (and plenty of other sources): what is one life measured against many, etc.

But for you, I think you should go much more to the roots of the class: to its very name. If necessary because of ability score problems, you might consider telling your DM that your character is not the cold, calculated killer of a traditional Assassin or Avenger, but rather a ruthless vigilante dead-set on revenge, and thus try to argue that you should use Charisma instead of Intelligence for the spellcasting. It certainly seems appropriate, particularly for a former Paladin whose zeal powered his old spellcasting.

There are only 10 levels of Avenger; for the rest, I’d consider Rogue and/or Blackguard. Blackguard is the traditional fallen-Paladin class, and it’s not bad (aside from the incredibly poorly-considered Hide prereq, which is almost impossible for any Paladin who didn’t plan on Falling to meet), but it’s definitely Evil not neutral. On the other hand, while Rogue loses BAB, it will give you a number of useful features and more Sneak Attack. A single level of Shadowdancer for the Hide in Plain Sight is also not a bad idea, if you do go in for the stealth aspects of these classes.

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I like the Idea but the Avenger sounds like a Prestige Class I don't know if my DM will let that fly even if he is level 18 –  user8053 Apr 22 '13 at 3:27
@user8053 It is a prestige class, but it's A. perfect for the situation your character is dealing with, and B. not in any way imbalanced. I cannot imagine any reason why he would deny you. –  KRyan Apr 22 '13 at 3:29

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