Take the 2-minute tour ×
Role-playing Games Stack Exchange is a question and answer site for gamemasters and players of tabletop, paper-and-pencil role-playing games. It's 100% free, no registration required.

I'm currently running a levels 1 to 20 campaign with my friends, and one of them is a Ninja (Pathfinder's class using the Basic Rogue Template). Functionally it's pretty much the same, and the thing is that, being a group that really enjoys combat encounters, he always finds himself having a hard time because at least I'm making stealth dificult to use in combat.

My players are not very tactical and like to run directly into encounters, and, following that logic, a character (at least I understand it that way) can't just roll Stealth and pretend to disappear to then use a Stealth Attack since enemies are aware of player positions most of the time.

That's a mistake on their part, however, they've also told me I don't give the stealthy player enough opportunities to hide. Most of our encounters have been on places where there are interesting features they can use at their advantage, but I rarely place stuff to hide since I am constantly discussing with the Ninja that he's just wasting turn on hiding when he can flank with an ally to gain the sneak attack bonus.

I really get bored with stealth elements, and I am personally not very good at running them, since at least for me they're pointless when the characters can just charge into the action and he's the only stealth loving guy there. He's a very good friend of mine and does his job as a ninja, and sometimes my players have asked me to think of more situations where he can have fun as well, but it's really hard for me to include things like this regularly.

Any ideas on how I can balance action and stealth without consuming too many rounds on doing so? That is what kills the fun for me - the character runs away, make stealth rolls, remain hidden, and suddenly attacks when he could gain the same bonus in one round.

share|improve this question

3 Answers 3

Stealth is fun.

Shadowdancer may be one of the most popular Prestige Classes in 3.5e, and that is solely due to the Hide in Plain Sight feat. Many players enjoy the thought of sneaking invisibly to the enemy and rolling insane backstab/sneak attack damage.

Unfortunately, stealth in D&D is not always that fun.

Now, the backstab part is awesome, and that's why most stealth players enjoy it. The problem is that the D&D mechanics as they are played out in most campaigns do not make much of stealth beyond a canned skill challenge. By looking at some good stealth games for the computer, such as Dishonored or Assassin's Creed, we can take some tips and add them to our campaigns.

Objectives

This is the biggest change that a DM has to foster in his campaign. As mentioned before, the objective of stealth is almost always just to get in some extra sneak attack damage. Stealth gets boring when, in the end, it's only about combat. There is nothing wrong with sneak attacks, of course. Some of the most memorable moments in my campaigns have been sneak attacks (double crit + 4x backstab damage FTW?), but stealth needs variety.

The purpose of stealth is to remain undetected. Let stealth be a tool for defeating encounters. If the players successfully sneak around an entire group of hobgoblins, give them full XP as if they had beaten the fight. And don't just stop there. If you want great stealth encounters, turn it into a real challenge like Dishonored does. Make enemies move around somewhat unpredictably. Have your players use distractions, or find opportunities to pick off the enemy one at a time. Give them bonus XP or a better reputation for being able to complete encounters without bloodshed, similar to Dishonored. Also like Dishonored, make a few combat encounters really dangerous if you rush right into them, and be sure to make that fairly clear through in-game information.

Environment

The world is bigger than a grid. Description helps. Open up the terrain for movement, like Assassin's Creed. Let them sneak past the royal guard by balancing across the rafters of the great hall or by sneaking over the rooftops to bypass the thugs waiting for them in the street. Think in 3D even though the grid is 2D.

Light is a huge factor for stealth in a lot of games, such as Amnesia: The Dark Descent. It ought to be very important in D&D as well, what with all the torches, lanterns, and magical lights often found in its environments. Have players make strategic use of light. One campaign, my players doused a torch while the guard was on the other side of the building so that when he came back, he couldn't see them sneaking inside. Unfortunately, the sudden lack of light alarmed him, which leads to another point:

The Chase Sequence

The way you describe the ninja character as cycling through backstab -> run -> hide -> backstab definitely confirms this as a bad pattern of stealth. One of the biggest flaws of the first Assassin's Creed game was how you could stab someone, run like heck, hide on a bench right around the corner, then go back and stab someone else. Rinse. Repeat. Worst of all, until they introduced notoriety in later games, it seemed like everyone forgot what you did.

Dishonored is a much better example of how to do detection and chase effectively. On the very first detection, the enemy is immediately alert and aware of the fact that you do not belong here. Hostility begins right away, and the chase is brutal. In a chase, NPCs do not let you get away unless you do something really daring. In the TV Show Burn Notice, the main character remarks during a narrative in a chase sequence that the only way to escape a chase is to do something that the people chasing you won't do -- like jumping off a roof.

And even if you get away, the NPCs should not just "forget" about you. They should be on high alert until you die or they are convinced that you have been driven off. Enemies on high alert for a stealth PC should not be easy to catch off-guard. In addition, they should not be splitting up alone if they are even reasonably intelligent.

Have NPCs adopt tactics like the PCs tend to act when encountering stealthy foes.

All Alone

"But I'm the only stealth character on the team!"

This is roughly the ninja player's position, I take it. I've been there. Fortunately, you don't have to be reliant on stab-and-run to be useful. A number of the former tips are intended for stealth-based encounters, but here's what a stealth PC has gotta do to have fun with stealth while your allies are kickin' down doors in the name of Tempus:

1: Wait for the encounter to get started. Be out of sight on the periphery. 2: Sneak up to a squishy target. 3: Stab. 4: ??? 5: Profit.

An ultra-stealthy character is ideal for taking out priority targets. Then, using other skills, such as acrobatic-type skills, make a daring escape. Not just running away by pure movement points, but dodging between pillars, leaping onto ledges, or tumbling past enemies to rejoin your allies.

Stealth should get you into the fray. Speed and tricks should get you out.

First, this adds variety to your actions as a stealthy character. Second, it should be hard to lose detection when enemies are tracking your movements so closely.

Beyond combat, a stealthy character can still be a great asset. Perhaps you can open a gate while the party is fighting. Maybe you can sneak into a camp and rescue a prisoner while the party is attacking from the opposite side. Generally, you should avoid going too lone wolf unless your party wants you to do so, because that's dangerous and slows down the game for others. Performing a stealth mission while the party fights a battle has been the best possible scenario in campaigns I have played. It keeps everyone busy, provides a distraction, and lets your group benefit from stealth simultaneously.

TL;DR version: Stealth should be more than dice rolls. It needs to interact with the environment and the intelligence of the NPCs involved. It should be rewarding, fast-paced, and require cleverness more than just sneakiness. When done right, it should give the party big advantages as a whole.

share|improve this answer
1  
You haven't addressed any of the actual stealth rules of 5e in writing your answer and how the Author can actually work within the system. –  Joshua Aslan Smith Jul 19 at 22:25
3  
I think most of the answer is system independent –  Adeptus Jul 20 at 12:02
    
Yeah, my experience with 5e is too limited still, but I can gibe plenty of solid system-agnostic tips which will also work in 5e. –  Tanthos Jul 20 at 16:23
2  
Although I like the answer by GMNoob, and it covers specific key points of the OP, this answer is an extremely well crafted one, and I feel it should be labeled as THE answer. A bit of editing to add rules specific comments and there would be little recourse but to label it as such. –  Aviose Jul 21 at 21:08

There seem to be a few misconceptions going around the table.

Misconception 1. My players are not very tactical and like to run directly into encounters

Explain to your players that if they wish to be sneaky ninjas, they need to act like sneaky ninjas. If the rest of the team rushes into battle, the Ninja should be staying back and hiding out, making sure the coast is clear before revealing themselves. The Ninja should also be advising the rest of the team on tactics which can be used to grant a surprise round advantage, or ambushes, or how to avoid being surprised.

Misconception 2. "a character (at least I understand it that way) can't just roll Stealth and pretend to disappear to then use a Stealth Attack since enemies are aware of player positions most of the time."

While it is true, that enemies are aware of their surrounding during combat, because they are wary, it is not true that they always know where somebody is. If somebody has cover, and is not making loud noises, they can hide. No, you can't 'pretend' to disappear, but you can actually hide and not be seen. There are multiple narrative ways to do this. One example, as given in the Basic Rules, is that there are a pile of rags in the corner of the room, a halfling might be able to bury themselves under those rags, while nobody is looking. Another example is hiding behind a wall, or a wood Elf can blend in with fog or leaves, or rain. Anything that can cause another creature to not know where you are can allow you to hide. Stealth is really useful, and you might think that every character should use stealth. That might be true, but then as you say in your question, it's a waste of a move when you can just attack instead. This is why cunning action has limited usage to Hide, Dash, or Disengage.

Misconception 3: " I am constantly discussing with the Ninja that he's just wasting turn on hiding when he can flank with an ally to gain the sneak attack bonus."

Hiding, is not just good for the sneak attack bonus. Being hidden also causes disadvantage when enemies try to attack you (If you are behind cover this can almost be an effective +8 to AC!) Attacking from a place where you are hidden also gives you advantage. (Often an effective +4 to hit) If a player wants to be the type of character that is hidden, can't be hit, and has precision strikes from hiding spots, this is a very effective technique. He isn't wasting time, especially if he is a level 2 Rogue or higher. Cunning action allows them to hide, attack and move, every turn. Sneak Attack Damage is another extra nice bonus. And just to make it clear, the Ninja should be staying as mechanically close to the rogue template as possible, making sure that being a Ninja isn't worse off than a basic rogue and only the subclass features gained by Thief are being replaced.

Any ideas on how I can balance action and stealth without consuming too many rounds on doing so? That is what kills the fun for me - the character runs away, make stealth rolls, remain hidden, and suddenly attacks when he could gain the same bonus in one round.

There are a few things you can do

  1. Make sure they have the "Cunning Action" and know how to use it. (i.e.) Allow them to hide almost every turn.
  2. Create environment where it is easy to hide. Large stacks of crates, Guard boxes, Trees, Stuff with nets over them. For people who like to do stealth, stealth is a lot of fun, let them play it up.
  3. Don't worry that being hidden and Sneak Attack Damage, and rogues/Ninjas are too powerful. Even with all the great advantages of being hidden, and attacking from a hidden location, rogues still do not do as much damage per day as Clerics, Wizards, or Fighters. At low levels they will seem really powerful "because they are doing so much" but the reality is that they are doing "just the right amount". Sneak attack damage, and the increased effective AC from being hidden is what keeps Rogues on par with the other classes, it does not make them become better.
share|improve this answer
    
I'd further emphasize that the Ninja should mechanically be as closely modeled on the Rogue as possible –  Joshua Aslan Smith Jul 19 at 22:27

If waiting a round kills your fun, you need to learn a little more patience.

Sure, the GM should have fun too. But if the rest of the group is supportive, and the player needs an extra round or two here or there to have fun with their character - man up and do it.

That's really the bottom line, though I would go on to say that limiting Stealth to "a chance to get a sneak attack in combat" is a pretty sad state of affairs, and that perhaps your players are getting rightfully sick of every game being an endless litany of "charge heedless into combat." That's usually fun at first, but once people have been gaming a while they often start looking for a little more sophistication in their fictional world.

share|improve this answer

Your Answer

 
discard

By posting your answer, you agree to the privacy policy and terms of service.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged or ask your own question.