-4
\$\begingroup\$

D&D 4e allows characters to do some extraordinary things with their weapons:

  1. You can hit a ghost without a magic weapon, and in fact having an enchanted weapon doesn't make a difference for attacking them.

  2. You can hurt a gelatinous cube with an arrow.

  3. You can attack an insect swarm with a spear or, again, an arrow.

I understand these were made for balance's sake, but when it comes to these little details, the game doesn't feel realistic enough for my group's enjoyment, and in a sense feels too close to a video game for comfort. Is there any sort of optional rule in any book that makes it different?

\$\endgroup\$
6
  • \$\begingroup\$ I would love to understand why my question is being downvoted since it's a valid question. \$\endgroup\$
    – Davi Braid
    Jan 20, 2015 at 16:23
  • 4
    \$\begingroup\$ Probably because it's pretty vague. You talk about "videogame feeling inconsistencies" but then your question examples are pretty much about weapon types vs specific foes. Is your question "how to add a rule to 4e that simulates the efficacy of different weapon types against different kinds of foes?" If so you should probably refine your question to that. \$\endgroup\$
    – mxyzplk
    Jan 20, 2015 at 16:42
  • \$\begingroup\$ Also it's worth mentioning that "4e is WoW with Dice" is a pretty loaded sentiment and this question treads quite close to that. \$\endgroup\$
    – wax eagle
    Jan 20, 2015 at 16:44
  • 4
    \$\begingroup\$ "Videogame-y" is fighting words to most people who play 4e. Since you're a fan of 4e otherwise, we can understand that you're not meaning to insult the game and its fans, but it's still probably not helping the question. Is what you're actually getting at the idea of dissociated mechanics? (A good definition in that link; but warning: the writer doesn't like 4e.) \$\endgroup\$ Jan 20, 2015 at 16:46
  • \$\begingroup\$ I've edited this to be less about video games, and more about whether these weapon attacks seem realistic enough for you and your group to enjoy them. I'm hoping this won't poke so much at that video-game sentiment 4e players are often tired of hearing, and represents the fact the only issues you've brought up seem to be about weapon interactions as others have pointed out. Please check to see if you're okay with this edit, and edit further or roll back if you wish. \$\endgroup\$ Jan 21, 2015 at 0:47

2 Answers 2

14
\$\begingroup\$

All characters in 4e are magic. The how of these things is up to you and you group to decide.

4e relies on a tight balance to make things fun, keep roles distinct and keep everyone at approximately the same general power level. Tweaking things because of in universe justifications that make different assumptions than the game's design can have unforseen consequences, wreck the tightly balanced system and overall make the game less fun (for some values of fun at least).

So no, generally you will not find optional rules that alter game balances. There's not going to be a single optional rule that is going to solve all 3 of these issues (and the more issues that will develop as you go through play).

However, you probably need to alter your assumptions about the system. Let me illustrate:

  1. Hitting a ghost without a magic weapon

    • Yes, this is true. However, you're likely doing half damage (insubstantial is a keyword, it means you do half damage). Having a magic weapon probably won't change this. Doing force damage might (it sometimes helps with insubstantial, but that's creature specific).
    • Corollary to this: Having a magic weapon is assumed by L2 or L3, or the system's math really doesn't work well. 4e is inherently high magic, so unless you're playing a Dark Sun game or have implemented the DS math, you need to hand out magic items like candy and keep your players on level with appropriate items.
    • Ghosts don't really show up until at least L3, so changes are, you're already hitting them with magic weapons. This distinction doesn't mean much.
  2. You can hurt a gelatinous cube with an arrow.

    • Let's remember that everyone is magic. Rarely are you simply firing an arrow. Generally you're attacking with a power. This power can be infused with magic, or insane skill or whatever. L1 characters are basically already the best at what they do. So you can hurt a gelatinous cube with an arrow: perhaps you've found a weak spot, or have attached a small explosive to your arrow.
  3. You can hurt an ant swarm with an arrow.

    • Again, everyone is magic. Again, you probably want to think about this as less about a single arrow/spear, and more about something attached to the projectile. You're probably firing the arrow from a magic bow or using a magic spear (again, everyone after L1 or so should be packing magic heat).

    • It's worth mentioning here though that most swarms actually have the same resistance to ranged attacks that they do to melee attacks (they resist half the damage), but take full from burst and blasts. This models the fact that melee and ranged weapons aren't particularly effective against a bunch of tiny critters. Perhaps the attack doesn't kill anything, but merely disrupts the creatures in the swarm damaging their effectiveness.

Overall, 4e has a single important tenet:

  • It's up to you to develop the in universe reasons why something works. Balance is what it is, and you change it at your own risk. It's much better to let the mechanics and flavor reside separately. Perform the mechanics and narrate something that makes sense even if it's not directly mechanically justified.

In other words, do what the mechanics tell you to do, and make up a good story about why they work like they do. 4e is intentionally very light on flavor for that reason. It's giving you creative freedom to explain why it works like that.

I've neglected an important element of 4e's assumptions. Damage is not explicitly the reduction of health from an opponent. 4e very clearly defines hit points as an abstraction of overall efficacy and health.

Hit points measure the ability of a creature to stand up to punishment, turn deadly strikes into glancing blows, and stay on its feet throughout a battle. Hit points represent more than physical endurance. They also represent skill, luck, and resolve—all the factors that combine to help a creature stay alive in combat. (RC 256)

In other words, damage doesn't have to be "you hurt me", it could be "you've worn me down in some way" or "you've forced me into a compromised position" or similar. (For a swarm, it could be "you waving your spear around scared some of the swarm away.") Hit point loss does not have to mean that you've physically damaged the object you are damaging.

\$\endgroup\$
3
  • \$\begingroup\$ This is a great answer. \$\endgroup\$
    – Davi Braid
    Jan 20, 2015 at 15:50
  • \$\begingroup\$ In point #3, you mention an arrow, but the question mentions a spear too. (The same principles apply though.) You may want to edit accordingly - or you can just leave as is and flag this comment as obsolete. :) \$\endgroup\$ Jan 21, 2015 at 0:34
  • \$\begingroup\$ @DaviBraid I just made a substantial edit re: 4e's philosophy re: HP which is rather important in this discussion. \$\endgroup\$
    – wax eagle
    Jan 21, 2015 at 1:53
8
\$\begingroup\$

No such option exists.

In part because what you are asking for is not a single rule, but multiple changes that all unbalance the game's items and character powers.

4e sacrifices the simulationism of previous editions in favor of tactical gameplay and fine-tuned balance. If you and your players have issue with its lack of verisimilitude you'd probably be better off playing a different edition of D&D such as 3.5 or 5th edition

\$\endgroup\$
3
  • 1
    \$\begingroup\$ Not really. They dislike it but it's a minor issue if compared to the fact that in 3.5 you didn't need to do anything if you had a wizard in your group. We all love the balance brought from 4e. But sometimes I have a hard time describing how the Ranger managed to cause 35 points of damage in a Fey Ant Swarm using a single arrow. I mean... C'mon... \$\endgroup\$
    – Davi Braid
    Jan 20, 2015 at 15:10
  • 1
    \$\begingroup\$ Why are you assuming a 1-1 parity between powers and arrows? Are you actually tracking arrows fired? You shouldn't. It's uninteresting bookkeeping. Describe a successful attack against an ant swarm as the ranger loading up 6 arrows all covered in pitch and lit on fire. That said, swarms are also insubstantial, so also take half damage, unless he used a burst attack. \$\endgroup\$
    – webbcode
    Jan 20, 2015 at 22:00
  • 2
    \$\begingroup\$ @webbcode probably worth mentioning that swarms are not automatically insubstantial, but often resist half damage against melee and ranged attacks. They mean distinctly different thing. (insubstantial halves all damage) \$\endgroup\$
    – wax eagle
    Jan 21, 2015 at 1:49

You must log in to answer this question.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .