Take the 2-minute tour ×
Role-playing Games Stack Exchange is a question and answer site for gamemasters and players of tabletop, paper-and-pencil role-playing games. It's 100% free, no registration required.

I'm starting my first stint as a DM, in DnD 4E, and one of my players insisted on rolling dice for his stats. I was ok, provided, as I said, "that the character was balanced with the rest of the group".

Problem: his rolls were something like '13, 13, 14, 14, 15, 17' (final stats, after discarding the worst value of 7 4d6 rolls). The other two players who rolled today, both newbies to 4E and, in my wife's case, newbie to role-playing, were "normal", with a few 11s, 12s, 14s, EDIT and 16s (I misremembered. I must have been really worried about this).

What I wanted to know is: should I make him reroll, or the other characters reroll or select some "better" values from standard arrays or using the point-buy system? Or am I worrying over nothing? He's playing a striker, but apart from possibly doing tons of damage, I'm worried that every skill challenge will be too easy to him. I was thinking of applying some hard DCs to his rolls, because hey, You Asked For It You Got It.

Bonus points on detailed advice on how to handle it. I am, as I said, new at this, and he's an experienced player who talked a lot. He might be a problem player (at least for me), or I might be wrong. I'm a bit afraid of becoming a doormat or overreacting.

EDIT As it is possible that the particular player might read this: please don't take offence. It's my first time at this, we just met, and I'm just trying to create the best game I can. As I said, it's possible that I am completely wrong.

share|improve this question
I'm curious as to why you permitted this player — or any of the players — to roll for their stats in this game. The rules for 4E no longer consider this a valid method of character generation. –  Jadasc Feb 7 '11 at 12:44
@Jadasc Well, in the Essentials RC, rolling dice for stats are allowed, only with a suggestion that if the rolls are too low or high the DM might at his discretion make the player reroll or choose another way to do the stats. –  Adriano Varoli Piazza Feb 7 '11 at 12:55
@Adriano In that case, I would probably establish a baseline of "no stat at 16 or above" as "too low." –  Jadasc Feb 7 '11 at 13:15
@Jadasc, Are you sure? IIRC, the PHB recommends point-buy, but shows standard arrays and dice rolling as other options. –  Brian S Nov 20 '13 at 15:13
add comment

6 Answers 6

up vote 10 down vote accepted

I don't think this character will be overpowered. In fact, I suspect that the other characters will be underpowered — the math of D&D 4E is engineered for characters who have at least a 16 in the score most related to their class: Strength for fighters, for example.

As for the question of whether this character will be a "Mary Sue," the question is difficult to answer in terms of roleplaying games — characters in RPGs often are hypercompetent and well-loved by the populace, even those hard to convince. It's the portrayal, not the mechanics, that determines Mary or Marty.

share|improve this answer
Thanks for your answer. It's true that the 'mary sue' bit of the question is unanswerable based on just this fact, and in fact belongs in a different question. –  Adriano Varoli Piazza Feb 7 '11 at 12:56
what is a mary sue? –  DForck42 Dec 19 '11 at 20:59
An impossibly perfect, beloved-by-all heroine. It comes originally from Star Trek fandom, but has grown to a commonly used trope in the SF/fan community. tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue –  Jadasc Dec 19 '11 at 21:24
add comment

Using stat arrays, my two preferred arrays are:

18 14 11 10 10 8

16 16 12 12 10 8

The Gamma World game, which is based off of D&D 4e, and uses similar math, starts characters with an 18 in their primary stat, and a 16 in their secondary stat, and asks all other stats to be rolled.

Compared to either of the above, the off stats for the one character are well above average, but the primary stats and secondary stats look reasonably balanced.

I would echo Jadasc's concerns that if the other characters are topping out at 14, that they will be underpowered.

[edit] I would recommend letting that player have his fun - in this case at least, he's good but not great, but also allowing the other players in the group use a standard array, as that will ensure that they have characters with ability scores sufficient to allow them to excel at what their characters need to do.

In addition, by pointing them to a method likely to give them a low stat, you can encourage the other players to role-play a weaknesses. [/edit]

share|improve this answer
Is the -1 modifier to a skill (for the 8) a bother to inexperienced players? –  Adriano Varoli Piazza Feb 7 '11 at 15:03
Probably not... I've not played with inexperienced players in years now, but I would imagine that the knowledge that "there are some things that my character isn't good at" is an easy and natural enough notion that it shouldn't be a problem. –  Simon Withers Feb 7 '11 at 15:52
add comment

I am not particularly familiar with 4e, so I will not attempt to answer how much stats impact play. This answer will focus on whether the players were better off rolling.

Point-buy v. 4d6, drop the lowest

  1. 4d6, Drop the lowest

    I just wrote a little script (which may not be perfect) that rolls 4d6 and drops the lowest.

    The average of 10,000,000 stat rolls was 12.243. Let's assume that as our average (if anyone could do the math to give me the actual expected value of 4d6 drop the lowest, that would be great).

    Using this average for each stat gives this array: 12.243, 12.243, 12.243, 12.243, 12.243, 12.243. This sums to 73.458 stat points.

  2. Point buy ($22)

    I will refer to the currency in point buy as $.

    Explanation: You start with the array 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 8. You have $22 to improve those skills. From 8 to 13, each stat point costs $1. From 14 to 16, each additional stat point costs $2. The 17th stat point costs $3 and the 18th stat point costs $4.

    Application: Buying stats most efficiently (spending as few $ as possible per stat) results in the array 14, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, which totals to 79 stat points. Buying points least efficiently ( highest $/stat ratio ) results in the array 18, 14, 11, 10, 10, 8, which totals to 71 stat points.

    Point-buy thus results in a range of 71-79 stat points.


  1. The experienced player

    The experienced player's stats are 13, 13, 14, 14, 15, 17. The sum of these stats is 86 stat points, almost 13 points above the average roll.

    By choosing to roll, the experienced player chose an option that would provide an average ~73 stat points. Rolling an 86 was actually high for that roll scheme.

  2. The other rollers

    The original post says the other players had arrays "with a few 11s, 12s, 14s, and 16s". At most, this means a stat array of 16, 16, 14, 14, 12, 11, which totals 83 points. At least, this means a stat array of 16, 14, 12, 12, 11, 11, which totals 76 points. We will assume, then, that the other rolling players were in the range 76-83.

    If the other rolling players rolled the estimated range (76-83), they are down 3-10 points from the other player, but still above the average by 3-10 points.

  3. The point-buy players

    The players that chose point-buy ended up in the range 71-79. This ranges from 2 points below the rolling average to 6 points above it. However, it offers predictability (no rolls way below average) and choice (how to assign stats). With a $22 start, this seems fairly balanced against the roll.


The experienced player took a gamble that paid off, but the choice was not systematically unfair to the other players.

Further Questions

Since the systems' center values are fairly close, they seem balanced mathematically. But there are other questions that this answer doesn't cover:

  1. Is the opportunity to cripple your character fun? One set of low rolls at the beginning of the game can negatively affect your character for the rest of play.

  2. Is an unusually high roll unfair for the rest of the players? Should pure rolling benefit one character for the duration of play?

  3. Is a low roll actually penalizing? If the GM's style allows for dying and re-rolling, the player could sacrifice themselves during the first few sessions to allow a re-roll. If the GM allows the player to start at the same level, the problem is even more pronounced.

  4. What is your goal for rolling? Is it just gambling, or does it provide other benefits? Is that the best way to obtain those benefits?

share|improve this answer
12.24 is the accurate average of 4d6 drop 1 according to anyDice, however the most commonly rolled result is 13. See for yourself at by calculating on the phrase "output [highest 3 of 4d6]" –  dpatchery Dec 20 '11 at 20:53
add comment

Probably Not

In 4e, stats are one of the least important areas of a character. So long as you have 16-20 in your primary and 14-20 in your secondary (for most classes) you'll be fine. the 17/15 stat array seems underpowered when it comes to a standard array (at least it's a bad combination) but nothing that I'd take exception to.

A better way of measuring power is to look at the DPR for each character. Damage Per Round is a key indicator of cheese because it is the value directly applied against the enemy hitpoint total. Therefore it factors in multi-attacks from powers, changes from feats, and associated class features.

After accuracy is factored in, I would only consider a character "overpowered" if they could do more than half a monster of their level's HP in a single round. (Round rather than turn due to some off-turn attacks being critical parts of some builds).

If you post the levels, classes, important feats, and items of each player, we will be able to assess whether the power-balance is significantly out of whack.

To calculate DPR, look here. The best way to handle it, if this is a worry to you, is to force all of your players to use point-buy. Player skill, ultimately, determines the success or failure or the character, rather than stats.

In general, I've had great success with group character creation. Look here for an example of how it plays out and here for the theory.

share|improve this answer
Since Wave will cease to exist sometime in the near future (I forget when), you may want to consider finding a way to preserve your example. If you have a blog, maybe you could post it on there and update the link? –  user1637 Dec 19 '11 at 20:45
add comment

I don't allow rolling for stats anymore. I had a player, whom I watched roll, get 4 18s. It just isn't fair to the rest of the group. I much prefer either giving everyone the same stats to assign at will, or a point-buy system to allow a little more customization.

share|improve this answer
add comment

In a group of experienced players, who have most likely gotten over the "twink" phase of role-playing, rolling for stats is fair-game and likely to create more interesting situations, than not. With my more advanced groups, we would use very draconian rules for getting stats for just these reasons. Wide stats ranges make challenging situations and combos more easy to find.

When starting up, with mostly inexperienced players, especially in a D&D4 game, I'd say go with standard arrays. Force the advanced player to try and show his skills at playing through better role-playing, and by teaching his fellow role-players the rules, rather than taking advantage of them.

You might also want to read up a bit on role playing game theory, there are some abstract concepts which can help you deal with some of these kinds of problems (for example, http://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/theory/threefold/faq_v1.html)

share|improve this answer
add comment

Your Answer


By posting your answer, you agree to the privacy policy and terms of service.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged or ask your own question.