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Last session happened that our Barbarian fell unconscious, with 0 healing surges, and before she could spend her second wind. The Avenger then made a Heal check to force her spending her second wind.

We decided that she wakes up with 1 hp by an interpretation of these rules:

HealDDI (Wisdom)
[...]
First Aid
Make a Heal check to administer first aid. First Aid: Standard action.
* DC: Varies depending on the task you’re attempting.
* Use Second Wind: Make a DC 10 Heal check to allow an adjacent character to use his or her second wind without the character having to take an action to do so. The character doesn’t gain the defense bonuses normally granted by second wind.
[...]

and

Healing and DyingDDI
Regain Hit Points: When you are dying and receive healing, you go to 0 hit points and then regain hit points from the healing effect. If the healing effect requires you to spend a healing surge but you have none left, you are restored to 1 hit point.
Become Conscious: As soon as you have a current hit point total that’s higher than 0, you become conscious and are no longer dying. (You are still prone until you take an action to stand up.)

Is the Use Second Wind use of the Heal skill a healing effect eligible for the "regain hit points" part of the "Healing and Dying" rule?

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3  
Doesn't second wind require the use of a healing surge? If the barbarian doesn't have any, she can't use it. – dpatchery Mar 28 '11 at 15:23
2  
the point was that the "Regain Hit Points" text allows for a dying character to use a power that requires a healing surge when they don't have one, they just go to 1 HP. – wax eagle Mar 28 '11 at 15:30
@dpatch: Mmm... this, indeed, is a good point :) We blindly short-circuited the requirement but it's true: she couldn't use it. Post it as an answer and I'm going to accept it. – Erik Burigo Mar 28 '11 at 15:32
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Presented the alternate opinion, as I've used it a few times in my games. – Brian Ballsun-Stanton♦ Mar 30 '11 at 3:38
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@Erik thats the rub isn't it. The entry seems to indicate passivity is required, but isn't having the Heal skill used on you a passive action. Def and issue that should be raised with WotC. – wax eagle Mar 30 '11 at 12:43
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2 Answers

up vote 12 down vote accepted

If the barbarian has no healing surges, she cannot use Second Wind. It requires her to spend one, which she does not have. And since the "Regain Hit Points" clause of Healing and Dying specifies that you have none left, this rule would never apply.

Second Wind[DDI] states:

You can dig into your resolve and endurance to find an extra burst of vitality. In game terms, you spend a healing surge to regain some of your lost hit points, and you focus on defending yourself. Unless otherwise noted in the statistics block of a monster or a nonplayer character, this action is available only to player characters.

[...]

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1  
Could someone add the DDI link to Second Wind just for clarity? I don't have access at this time. – dpatchery Mar 28 '11 at 15:48
1  
done :) – user660 Mar 28 '11 at 20:13
@Baelnorn thanks! – dpatchery Mar 28 '11 at 23:03
up vote 10 down vote

She regains 1 hit point.

Under Healing the Dying

Regain Hit Points: When you are dying and receive healing, you go to 0 hit points and then regain hit points from the healing effect. If the healing effect requires you to spend a healing surge but you have none left, you are restored to 1 hit point.

Second wind grants the character the right to use a healing surge. With none remaining, her surge value is effectively 1 due to "Regain Hitpoints while dying." With that said, it could be stated that this is effectively a stabilization roll which would restore her to 0 HP, but that is not strictly suggested by the rules.

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Mmm... this was our first inference, but re-reading Second Wind as @dpatch pointed out it seems that you must spend a healing surge in order to regain hit points. The exception provided by the Healing and Dying section seems to allow a "free hp" only if a character receives healing. Does Second Wind qualify? – Erik Burigo Mar 30 '11 at 6:47
Yes, because every instance of healing using a surge requires a HS spent. Therefore, Healing the dying applies. – Brian Ballsun-Stanton♦ Mar 30 '11 at 8:17
Uhm... that seems the reverse implication. Receiving healing => HS spent. But does HS spent => receiving healing? – Erik Burigo Mar 30 '11 at 8:24
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Second wind is a pesudo-action, in the sense that it doesn't have a power card. However, all "spend HS" power cards have the healing keyword. Healing is defined as: "Healing Powers that restore hit points." So, as Second Wind is a pseudo-power (without the fancy red border) that allows a character to restore hitpoints by spending a healing surge, it is de facto a healing power. Therefore, the regain hitpoints can effectively be read as "The your healing surge healed value becomes 1 when you are reduced to 0 healing surges remaining." From a practical matter, I've seen this used in play. – Brian Ballsun-Stanton♦ Mar 30 '11 at 8:41
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@Monkios - That is incorrect as Lay on Hands specifically stipulates that the giver MUST have a healing surge. "You must have at least one healing surge to use this power" – wax eagle Mar 30 '11 at 18:04
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