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Long story short, I'm about to betray my party (by trying to kill them). Assuming they defeat me, how much experience should they get? I am a level 14 Drow Psion.

Edit: Not sure if this will change the answers I've gotten so far, but I will have allies at my back when the betrayal fight goes down. 1 Drow leader-ish type, 3 Driders, and 5 Drow minions.

Edit 2: I didn't want to write the full context of the situation at first, as I didn't think it would make a difference to this particular question, but you can take a look at my answer to the linked question for full details.

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Why are you betraying the party? This type of conflict detracts from the fun of the game for most groups. – Brendan Enrick Jun 27 '11 at 19:58
There used to be a chart in the DMG for calculating npc xp based on skills and feats. I do not know for sure that it made 4e but It was in every version from 1 to 3.5. That said the GM may deem you worth more or less than this amount. – Chad Jun 27 '11 at 20:03
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I'm just thinking about the party getting PC loot ... – C. Ross♦ Jun 27 '11 at 20:53
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@Brendan This is the culmination of a long story line. It's been foreshadowed and everything. Don't worry, it will be an awesome encounter. – dpatchery Jun 27 '11 at 20:56
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I think I've heard the phrase "Oh ... and do I get experience points for that?" for accidentally killing a team-mate in ''Munchkins''. – Andrew Grimm Jun 27 '11 at 23:47
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5 Answers

up vote 5 down vote accepted

If you will have other monsters in the encounter with you then talk to your DM. Have him set the XP budget for the encounter and then price yourself accordingly based on the other creatures in the encounter.

PCs are probably worth a variable amount depending on how much stuff they have, the quality of feats they have taken and the optimization of their character. Most likely a L14 character is probably worth significantly less than a L14 Solo. However, they are probably worth more than the average L14 monster of their same role.

Therefore, it makes more sense to me to figure out the XP needs of the encounter and just set the PC XP to fall within the budget, rather than trying to figure out exactly how much the PC is worth.

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As an aside, our alternate group recently killed a PC that had been with our main party. He was a L7 Drow Assassin/Avenger and appeared riding a small red dragon (can't remember which type, level appropriate though). We dropped the Drow in a round without breaking a sweat (he did get a turn, but it really didn't help him), the dragon on the other hand took us about 2 or 3 rounds more and nearly killed us. Point being, well built Solo monsters are a ton harder to kill than solitary PCs. – wax eagle Jun 28 '11 at 12:33
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I like this idea. Given the monsters and the terrain and the special circumstances of the encounter, just assign an Encounter Level and give that much EXP. No need to calculate what the individual PC is actually worth. – dpatchery Jun 28 '11 at 12:52
up vote 7 down vote

Level 14 Solo Creature is worth 5,000 XP Which is effectively what you are. However, I can hear arguments for saying that you are just elite, so that would only be 2,000 XP

While Solo Creatures have more HP than a normal PC, and a PC has more abilities than an Elite, the most fair option is to go down the middle, and a level 14 char would be worth 3,500 XP

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But a Solo would have more HP and more means to handle the group as a whole compared to a single PC. But its more than an elite can handle... interesting here. – zapoqx Jun 27 '11 at 20:36
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I think Solo (while technically would be what the PC would be) is a little too generous in regards to XP. That said, I think that a PC is substantially more than the average XP for an Elite of that level (even though Elite would be more comparable.) I would almost be tempted to just split the different if I were the DM and say between 3,500 and 4,000 XP, that seems fair given the level. – GPierce Jun 27 '11 at 20:41
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This is why I asked the question. I have the abilities of a solo, but with a measly 65 hit points I could easily be killed in a single round... – dpatchery Jun 27 '11 at 21:06
@Sorcerer Blob, you should enter your comment as an answer. It's fairly close or @GMNoob you should update your answer to take the comment into account! – mirv120 Jun 27 '11 at 21:39
@GMNoob, feel free to update if you want to. I was just expanding with personal opinion on your answer! – GPierce Jun 27 '11 at 21:55
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up vote 6 down vote

Thinking about the models of 4e, I would assert something a little odd. By choosing to become an NPC, you quite literally become a "monster" for purposes of combat. Arrange with your GM an opportunity for you to become, thematically, an elite or solo (depending on what level of assistance you want) and to translate your character into a monster.

The reason why I recommend this is that any given party will absolutely gank any one of its members that turns on them in an even fight.

Consider the following:

A striker at level 14 is expected to do (8*14+24)/4 34 damage with their at wills after accuracy is accounted for. As you are the controller of your party, there are inevitably one or two other strikers who will, as they say, "faceroll" you on their first action. And it would be absurdly difficult to conceive of two strikers (not to mention the rest of them) dropping action points and two dailies not being able to drop a controller with no defender support.

This, honestly, isn't a very interesting outcome.

The other case is that you engage them outside of a traditional encounter, using surprise and poison to play "Ten Little Indians." (Interesting book by Agatha Christie). This, while interesting in a role-playing setup, features no combat per se. Quest XP would be an appropriate reward if they managed to drop you.

The middle case is that you, through powers of system-magic, turn into a mob. In the most interesting case, you're an elite with a chamber of specially prepared traps and hazards. (And minions. Can't forget a layer of tasty tasty ablative minions.) This is a nice, if counterintuitive, case because it provides for a satisfying combat for both sides. As such, your XP should be commensurate with the monster that you become.

One happy upshot of this is that whatever evil deal you struck can actually be shown to the players as you undergoing a magical-girl (tm) transformation sequence, explaining why your loot evaporates. It also gives you a final moment of glory before the rest of the party cuts you down like the monster you now are. :)

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While not actually answering this specific question, this is a really good idea! This would also be a great answer to the question of How to do a betrayal. Just as there is a mechanism to turn Monsters into PCs, you've created a great mechanism to turn PCs into Monsters. – GMNoob Jun 28 '11 at 8:08
Just for instance, this wouldn't answer the question if the players already killed the PC and they want to know the XP value. – GMNoob Jun 28 '11 at 8:11
up vote 3 down vote

I had an idea, but not sure if it's a good one. Let the votes decide.

A level 14 party should be able to defeat, but spend all of it's resources on, a level 18 solo. If we use that to assume that the party is "worth" the same EXP as a level 18 solo (10,000), one PC would be worth 1/5th of the total EXP, or 2000.

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I think this is probably the best answer to this question. Instead of becoming a Solo you realize you are part of a whole and thus worth your portion. Probably not worth considering in this instance, but should different PCs be worth different proportions? – wax eagle Jun 28 '11 at 12:22
Also, since you will have a group with you, this make more sense then trying to re-skin a monster to match you. – wax eagle Jun 28 '11 at 12:23
A level 14 party is not worth 5,000 XP. a level 14 party is expected to be able to defeat 5,000 xp worth of challenge. – GMNoob Jun 28 '11 at 12:32
@GMNoob I know it's a stretch... maybe a level 14 party is more equivalent to a level 16 solo? What level do you think would be an even match? – dpatchery Jun 28 '11 at 12:53
I believe its 4 levels above the party, so a level 14 party should be able to defeat, but have to use all its resources for a level 18 solo. I'll have to check the rule compendium on creating encounters when I get home. – GMNoob Jun 28 '11 at 13:05
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up vote 2 down vote

Based on Brian's excellent suggestion, and thinking about other cases, besides your specific case, of when PC XP might come up, I would suggest that the XP value of killing a PC is 0.

If you want to skill challenge the betrayal, the XP would be rewarded for the Skill Challenge. If the party is ment to be in an encounter with the PC, then I would do what Brian suggested, and create a Monster version of the PC for the encounter, or create Monster versions for the rest of the group (which ever direction the campaign is intended to go into.)

In the cases where there is no combat encounter or a Skill Challenge, and the PC gets killed by other PCs, there is no XP value given, other than by GM discretion for roll play bonus points.

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