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From the Rogue Trader rulebook, page 107, for the Talent Takedown:

If he hits and would have done at least 1 point of Damage, then ignore the Damage and the opponent must make a Toughness Test or be stunned for 1 Round.

Looking elsewhere, the 'normal' character does 1d5−3+SB damage. (SB = Strength Bonus). Damage is reduced by armor and Toughness Bonus, though, so it is unclear in which cases the Takedown fails. Obviously, if the damage roll is 3 or less (assuming a SB of 0), it fails. But what if it is a 4 or up, and the opponent has a Toughness or Armor reduction? Does the 'would have done at least 1 point of damage' test occur before or after that reduction?

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  • \$\begingroup\$ I'm pretty sure a SB of 0 impossible, actually. Min strength should be 15 + 2d, so even a horrible roll would result in a strength superior to 10, which entails a SB of 1. \$\endgroup\$
    – Nigralbus
    Dec 17, 2015 at 14:18
  • \$\begingroup\$ @nigralbus Sure, but the specific numbers don't matter, just the order of operations. Besides, the 17 minimum strength only applies to "elite" PCs, not every character or NPC. \$\endgroup\$
    – Nathaniel Ford
    Dec 17, 2015 at 14:46

3 Answers 3

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The system sort of really hangs on that Toughness and armor. That means the damage is only done when you have removed those factors.

e.g., Takedown won't work if the Power Armor stops all. The idea is of the armor is also sort of the strength of the game.

If we look to a similar game (Dark Heresy 2.0 page 132)

Tier: 1
Prerequisite: None
Aptitudes: Weapon Skill, Offence

When making a Standard Attack or Charge action, the Acolyte can declare that he is attempting a takedown his target. He then rolls to hit (using his Weapon Skill) as normal, applying all the regular modifiers for the attack action. If the character hits and would have done at least 1 point of damage (after reduction for Armour and Toughness), no wounds are caused. Instead, the opponent must make a Challenging (+0) Toughness test or be Stunned for 1 Round and knocked Prone. In addition, when performing a Stun Action, the character does not suffer the normal –20 penalty to his Weapon Skill.

I'm guessing that you need to do the armour and toughness reduction first.

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On p250 of the Rogue Trader rulebook we read that:

Each time a character is dealt Damage, there may be an opportunity for him to reduce it before it is applied to his total. By default, a character reduces incoming Damage by an amount equal to his Toughness Bonus. Armour can also help further reduce Damage. If the source of the Damage struck a body location protected by armour, the incoming Damage is reduced by an amount equal to the Armour Points provided by the armour. It is important to note that some sources of Damage ignore armour and/or Toughness; such cases are always detailed in the description of the Damage source.

This means that Takedown will be triggered as long as the damage remaining after reduction by Toughness and / or armour is greater than zero (assuming that the source of the Damage doesn't ignore armour and/or Toughness).

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  • \$\begingroup\$ Because it doesn't address the essential question while reiterating already understood rules: the ambiguous terminology of 'doing Damage' is the problem. If Alice 'does 10 Damage' to Bob, who reduces it by 6 to 4 damage, did he take 10 damage or 4? When do you run the check to see if Takedown 'worked'. Also, as an aside, why do you think that Takedown can be used with a ranged weapon? \$\endgroup\$
    – Nathaniel Ford
    Dec 18, 2015 at 20:04
  • \$\begingroup\$ I still don't think this addresses the question: note the "by default". Takedown is a Talent and therefore not a default. But assuming it is, there is no clear way to interpret if the test to see if Takedown works occurs before 'incoming' damage is reduced. Thus far, the strongest evidence is in the form of the other answer: where another book has explicitly stated that damage reduction occurs first. \$\endgroup\$
    – Nathaniel Ford
    Dec 18, 2015 at 22:00
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You cannot determine how much damage is dealt until you incorporate the toughness and armour components. Incoming damage is just whatever has been rolled by the attack which is irrelevant as the talent states if damage would have been dealt.

Incoming damage can never be less than 1. Applied damage can.

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  • \$\begingroup\$ From p.245 "Each weapon has a damage listing, which is usually a die roll, plus or minus a number. Roll the appropriate die and apply any indicated modi ers. Finally, if the attack involved a melee weapon, add the attacker’s Strength Bonus. The result is the damage total." It goes on to have a whole separate section called "Target Applies Damage", implying Damage is already determined. Without reference to explicit text, I think your answer is invalid as a result of these passages. Also, no where does it say 1 is the minimum 'incoming' damage. \$\endgroup\$
    – Nathaniel Ford
    Dec 18, 2015 at 23:29
  • \$\begingroup\$ Ok you're right about the minimum damage, however at that point it doesn't matter as the damage will be less than 0 and the talent won't take affect . I don't think you are going to find specific ruling in the books. Imho, I think the intention is clear, if damage is dealt, your talent takes effect. Otherwise, it practically becomes a stun at will when you make a hit, regardless of armour \$\endgroup\$
    – link64
    Dec 18, 2015 at 23:37
  • \$\begingroup\$ "the opponent must make a Toughness Test or be stunned for 1 Round." suggests it is not a stun-at-will. The target gets both a reaction and a toughness check to avoid a non-incapacitating effect that lasts only one round. There are other Talents that cancel stuns. This would hardly be overpowered effect if it ignored armor and Toughness (which, if it reduces damage, effectively counts twice). \$\endgroup\$
    – Nathaniel Ford
    Dec 18, 2015 at 23:42

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