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edited Jun 16, 2020 at 10:23

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#Base Damage (at Level 1):

Base Damage (at Level 1):

Charts to lay out average DPR:

#Charts to lay out average DPR: AssumingAssuming you're not going to get more damage out of a bonus action (which Eldritch Knight's War Magic (PHB p. 75) might give you, or some of the Battle Master maneuvers (PHB p. 74), for example) it scales like this:

Getting TWF to beat GWF at Level 20

#Getting TWF to beat GWF at Level 20 OnceOnce you get 4 attacks per turn at level 20, even without GWF a Greatsword outperforms two Shortswords with TWF until the modifier reaches+10 - that's a +3 magic weapon (DMG p.213) and a Belt of Fire Giant Strength! (DMG p.155) Make it a Belt of Storm Giant Strength and you can beat the Greataxe with GWF due to a combined modifier of +12, but to beat the GWF Greatsword you'd need a whopping +16, and I'm not sure where you'd get that:

What about with Flame Tongue?

#What about with Flame Tongue? Spear Carrier's answer referred to Flame Tongue weapons (DMG p.170) as a way of helping TWF's viability, which intrigued me: that doesn't add to your bonus, but rather stacks on extra (fire) damage die. So I decided to check it out and see how far it got you. Assuming a Flame Tongue weapon is available to either party, it doesn't do a lot, though - at level 20 you still need a total modifier of 15, which I'm pretty sure can't be achieved with official material. (Basically it amounts to adding 7 average damage per attack for both builds.)

Final considerations

#Final considerations TheThe only reason I can imagine going for TWF for a L20 Fighter if optimization is what you're after is if you're going crit fishing, and that one extra attack might land it for you. Even then, though, you're losing that bonus action that a Battle Master or Eldritch Knight could use to add more damage every time, rather than just 3/20 of the time, and GWF only needs 1 magic weapon, leaving an extra attunement slot.

#Base Damage (at Level 1):

#Charts to lay out average DPR: Assuming you're not going to get more damage out of a bonus action (which Eldritch Knight's War Magic (PHB p. 75) might give you, or some of the Battle Master maneuvers (PHB p. 74), for example) it scales like this:

#Getting TWF to beat GWF at Level 20 Once you get 4 attacks per turn at level 20, even without GWF a Greatsword outperforms two Shortswords with TWF until the modifier reaches+10 - that's a +3 magic weapon (DMG p.213) and a Belt of Fire Giant Strength! (DMG p.155) Make it a Belt of Storm Giant Strength and you can beat the Greataxe with GWF due to a combined modifier of +12, but to beat the GWF Greatsword you'd need a whopping +16, and I'm not sure where you'd get that:

#What about with Flame Tongue? Spear Carrier's answer referred to Flame Tongue weapons (DMG p.170) as a way of helping TWF's viability, which intrigued me: that doesn't add to your bonus, but rather stacks on extra (fire) damage die. So I decided to check it out and see how far it got you. Assuming a Flame Tongue weapon is available to either party, it doesn't do a lot, though - at level 20 you still need a total modifier of 15, which I'm pretty sure can't be achieved with official material. (Basically it amounts to adding 7 average damage per attack for both builds.)

#Final considerations The only reason I can imagine going for TWF for a L20 Fighter if optimization is what you're after is if you're going crit fishing, and that one extra attack might land it for you. Even then, though, you're losing that bonus action that a Battle Master or Eldritch Knight could use to add more damage every time, rather than just 3/20 of the time, and GWF only needs 1 magic weapon, leaving an extra attunement slot.

Base Damage (at Level 1):

Charts to lay out average DPR:

Assuming you're not going to get more damage out of a bonus action (which Eldritch Knight's War Magic (PHB p. 75) might give you, or some of the Battle Master maneuvers (PHB p. 74), for example) it scales like this:

Getting TWF to beat GWF at Level 20

Once you get 4 attacks per turn at level 20, even without GWF a Greatsword outperforms two Shortswords with TWF until the modifier reaches+10 - that's a +3 magic weapon (DMG p.213) and a Belt of Fire Giant Strength! (DMG p.155) Make it a Belt of Storm Giant Strength and you can beat the Greataxe with GWF due to a combined modifier of +12, but to beat the GWF Greatsword you'd need a whopping +16, and I'm not sure where you'd get that:

What about with Flame Tongue?

Spear Carrier's answer referred to Flame Tongue weapons (DMG p.170) as a way of helping TWF's viability, which intrigued me: that doesn't add to your bonus, but rather stacks on extra (fire) damage die. So I decided to check it out and see how far it got you. Assuming a Flame Tongue weapon is available to either party, it doesn't do a lot, though - at level 20 you still need a total modifier of 15, which I'm pretty sure can't be achieved with official material. (Basically it amounts to adding 7 average damage per attack for both builds.)

Final considerations

The only reason I can imagine going for TWF for a L20 Fighter if optimization is what you're after is if you're going crit fishing, and that one extra attack might land it for you. Even then, though, you're losing that bonus action that a Battle Master or Eldritch Knight could use to add more damage every time, rather than just 3/20 of the time, and GWF only needs 1 magic weapon, leaving an extra attunement slot.

Slight grammar/spelling fixes, added references

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edited Feb 28, 2019 at 8:38

Isaac Reefman

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GWFGWF

TWFTWF

Basically TWF lowers your availablebase weapon dice type (compared to the Greataxe)damage, but gives you 21 extra full attack actionsaction for the price of your bonus action. Compared to the Greatsword (at Level 1), you roll the same number of dice, but GWF lets you re-roll versus TWF letting you add your bonus an extra time. Before 5th level, this makes a considerable difference, especially if you're looking for crits, due to the extra attack roll (though at low levels your build probably isn't optimized that much for crit-fishing).

#Charts to lay out average DPR: Assuming you're not going to get more damage out of a bonus action (which EK'sEldritch Knight's War Magic (PHB p. 75) might give you, or some of the Battle MasterBattle Master maneuvers (PHB p. 74), for example) it scales like this:

As you can see, even without magic weapons, TWF is easily in the lead before level 5, and then still out-performs the greataxe with anything better than just the STR Mod from a score of 18. BecauseBut because the only thing TWF gives you that scales is one extra use of your modifier, it's got to be high to offset the extra (greater) weapon damage that great weapons give on each attack once we start stacking more attacks on.

#Getting TWF to beat GWF at Level 20 Once you get 4 attacks per turn at level 20, even without GWF a Greatsword outperforms two Shortswords with TWF until the modifier reaches+10 - that's a +3 magic weapon+3 magic weapon (DMG p.213) and a Belt of Fire Giant StrengthBelt of Fire Giant Strength! (DMG p.155) Make it a Belt of Storm Giant StrengthBelt of Storm Giant Strength and you can beat the Greataxe with GWF due to a combined modifier of 12+12, but to beat the GWF Greatsword you'd need a whopping +16, and I'm not sure where you'd get that:

Of course, before Level 11 a total modifier of 7 is enough for TWF to stay in front, and once you hit thateven then they tie at 58 Avg DPR with a modifier of 11 - tough, but doable more. More than that and TWF pulls ahead again for 19 full levels.

#What about with Flame TongueFlame Tongue? Spear Carrier's answer referred to Flame Tongue Daggersweapons (DMG p.170) as a way of helping TWF's viability, which intrigued me: that doesn't add to your bonus, but rather stacks on extra (fire) damage die. So I decided to check it out and see how far it got you. Assuming a Flame Tongue weapon is available to either party, it doesn't do a lot, though - at level 20 you still need a total modifier of 15, which I'm pretty sure can't be achieved with official material. (Basically it amounts to adding 7 average damage per attack for both builds.)

#Final considerations The only reason I can imagine going for TWF for a L20 Fighter if optimization is what you're after is if you're going crit fishing, and that one extra attack might land it for you. Even then, though, you're losing that bonus action that a Battle Master or Eldritch Knight could use to add more damage every time, rather than just 3/20 of the time, and GWF only needs 1 magic weapon, leaving an extra attunement slot.

GWF

TWF

Basically TWF lowers your available weapon dice type (compared to the Greataxe), but gives you 2 full attack actions for the price of your bonus action. Compared to the Greatsword (at Level 1), you roll the same number of dice, but GWF lets you re-roll versus TWF letting you add your bonus an extra time. Before 5th level, this makes a considerable difference, especially if you're looking for crits, due to the extra attack roll (though at low levels your build probably isn't optimized that much for crit-fishing).

#Charts to lay out average DPR: Assuming you're not going to get more damage out of a bonus action (which EK's War Magic might give you, or some of the Battle Master maneuvers, for example) it scales like this:

As you can see, even without magic weapons, TWF is easily in the lead before level 5, and then still out-performs the greataxe with anything better than just the STR Mod from a score of 18. Because the only thing TWF gives you that scales is one extra use of your modifier, it's got to be high to offset the extra (greater) weapon damage that great weapons give on each attack.

#Getting TWF to beat GWF at Level 20 Once you get 4 attacks per turn at level 20, even without GWF a Greatsword outperforms two Shortswords with TWF until the modifier reaches+10 - that's a +3 magic weapon and a Belt of Fire Giant Strength! Make it a Belt of Storm Giant Strength and you can beat the Greataxe with GWF due to a combined modifier of 12, but to beat the GWF Greatsword you'd need a whopping +16, and I'm not sure where you'd get that:

Of course, before Level 11 a total modifier of 7 is enough for TWF to stay in front, and once you hit that they tie at 58 Avg DPR with a modifier of 11 - tough, but doable more than that and TWF pulls ahead again for 19 full levels.

#What about with Flame Tongue? Spear Carrier's answer referred to Flame Tongue Daggers as a way of helping TWF's viability, which intrigued me: that doesn't add to your bonus, but rather stacks on extra (fire) damage die. So I decided to check it out and see how far it got you. Assuming a Flame Tongue weapon is available to either party, it doesn't do a lot, though - at level 20 you still need a total modifier of 15, which I'm pretty sure can't be achieved with official material.

#Final considerations The only reason I can imagine going for TWF for a L20 Fighter if optimization is what you're after is if you're going crit fishing, and that one extra attack might land it for you. Even then, though, you're losing that bonus action that a Battle Master or Eldritch Knight could use to add more damage every time, rather than just 3/20 of the time.

GWF

TWF

Basically TWF lowers your base weapon damage, but gives you 1 extra full attack action for the price of your bonus action. Before 5th level, this makes a considerable difference, especially if you're looking for crits, due to the extra attack roll (though at low levels your build probably isn't optimized that much for crit-fishing).

#Charts to lay out average DPR: Assuming you're not going to get more damage out of a bonus action (which Eldritch Knight's War Magic (PHB p. 75) might give you, or some of the Battle Master maneuvers (PHB p. 74), for example) it scales like this:

As you can see, even without magic weapons, TWF is easily in the lead before level 5, and then still out-performs the greataxe with anything better than just the STR Mod from a score of 18. But because the only thing TWF gives you that scales is one extra use of your modifier, it's got to be high to offset the extra (greater) weapon damage that great weapons give on each attack once we start stacking more attacks on.

#Getting TWF to beat GWF at Level 20 Once you get 4 attacks per turn at level 20, even without GWF a Greatsword outperforms two Shortswords with TWF until the modifier reaches+10 - that's a +3 magic weapon (DMG p.213) and a Belt of Fire Giant Strength! (DMG p.155) Make it a Belt of Storm Giant Strength and you can beat the Greataxe with GWF due to a combined modifier of +12, but to beat the GWF Greatsword you'd need a whopping +16, and I'm not sure where you'd get that:

Of course, before Level 11 a total modifier of 7 is enough for TWF to stay in front, and even then they tie at 58 Avg DPR with a modifier of 11 - tough, but doable. More than that and TWF pulls ahead again for 19 full levels.

#What about with Flame Tongue? Spear Carrier's answer referred to Flame Tongue weapons (DMG p.170) as a way of helping TWF's viability, which intrigued me: that doesn't add to your bonus, but rather stacks on extra (fire) damage die. So I decided to check it out and see how far it got you. Assuming a Flame Tongue weapon is available to either party, it doesn't do a lot, though - at level 20 you still need a total modifier of 15, which I'm pretty sure can't be achieved with official material. (Basically it amounts to adding 7 average damage per attack for both builds.)

#Final considerations The only reason I can imagine going for TWF for a L20 Fighter if optimization is what you're after is if you're going crit fishing, and that one extra attack might land it for you. Even then, though, you're losing that bonus action that a Battle Master or Eldritch Knight could use to add more damage every time, rather than just 3/20 of the time, and GWF only needs 1 magic weapon, leaving an extra attunement slot.

Fixed calculation errors, adjusted formatting and added reference to Flame Tongue inspired by another answer

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edited Feb 28, 2019 at 5:47

Isaac Reefman

3.7k
5
24
56

Without GWF, d12 has 1/12 chance of base damage 1 through 12, so each round is 1d12 + Strength Mod or 6.5 + 4 = 10.5 avg DPR.
Without GWF, d12 has 1/12 chance of base damage 1 through 12, so each round is 1d12 + Strength Mod or 6.5 + 4 = 10.5 avg DPR.
With GWF, d12 has 2/12 chance of re-rolling, so 34 possible results. 1 and 2 are 2/34 each, every other number is 3/34 yeilding a mean of just over 6.79, so:
With GWF, rollin a 1 or 2 triggers a re-roll, returning on average 6.5. (I was initially confused about how to calculate this, so I had to ask this math.se question) Replacing those results with their average returns gives an average damage roll of 7.33, so:
GWF, STR 18 (mod 4) yields 6.79 + 4 = 10.79 avg DPR.
GWF, STR 18 (mod 4) yields 7.33 + 4 = 11.33 avg DPR.
As Spear Carrier pointed out, using a 2d6 weapon synergises better with GWF as there are twice as many chances to get a re-roll. This brings the Greatsword's average damage up to 8.33, which gives 12.33 when STR Mod is added.

Basically TWF lowers your available weapon dice type (compared to the Greataxe), but gives you 2 full attack actions for the price of your bonus action. Compared to the Greatsword (at Level 1), you roll the same number of dice, but GWF lets you re-roll versus TWF letting you add your bonus an extra time. Before 5th level, this makes a considerable difference, especially if you're looking for crits, due to the extra attack roll (though at low levels your build probably isn't optimized that much for crit-fishing).

#Charts to lay out average DPR: Assuming you're not going to get more damage out of a bonus action (it does seem unlikely thatwhich EK's War Magic might give you could, regardlessor some of your buildthe Battle Master maneuvers, for example) it scales like this:

As you can see, even without magic weapons, GWF doesn't getTWF is easily in the upper hand until Level 11lead before level 5, when you getand then still out-performs the extra attack feature forgreataxe with anything better than just the second timeSTR Mod from a score of 18. AndBecause the only thing TWF gives you need a flat +3that scales is one extra use of your modifier, it's got to damagebe high to keep TWF inoffset the leadextra (greater) weapon damage that great weapons give on each attack. At

#Getting TWF to beat GWF at Level 20 Once you get 4 attacks per turn at level 20, I dideven without GWF a Greatsword outperforms two Shortswords with TWF until the mathmodifier reaches+10 - that's a +3 magic weapon and a Belt of Fire Giant Strength! Make it a Belt of Storm Giant Strength and you can beat the Greataxe with GWF due to a combined modifier of 12, but to beat the GWF Greatsword you'd need a whopping +16, and I'm not sure where you'd get that:

You'd needOf course, before Level 11 a +3 weapon and other flat modifiers that total 9 to stay ahead with TWF. If the only modifier you can use for itof 7 is STRenough for TWF to stay in front, and once you hit that would mean you'd needthey tie at 58 Avg DPR with a STR scoremodifier of 28 minimum. You're going to need some serious homebrew to manage11 - tough, but doable more than that! and TWF pulls ahead again for 19 full levels.

Of course#What about with Flame Tongue? Spear Carrier's answer referred to Flame Tongue Daggers as a way of helping TWF's viability, upwhich intrigued me: that doesn't add to Level 19your bonus, you'dbut rather stacks on extra (fire) damage die. So I decided to check it out and see how far it got you. Assuming a Flame Tongue weapon is available to either party, it doesn't do a lot, though - at level 20 you still need a total modifier of 15, which I'm pretty sure can't be doing betterachieved with any Strength Modifier + Weapon Bonus combo that totals 7, soofficial material.

#Final considerations The only reason I can imagine going for TWF for a STR 20L20 Fighter if optimization is what you're after is if you're going crit fishing, and +2 weapon would dothat one extra attack might land it for you. And that's 19 full levelsEven then, though, you're losing that bonus action that a Battle Master or Eldritch Knight could use to add more damage every time, rather than just 3/20 of the time.

Thanks András and Protonflux for pointing out my calculation errors in an earlier edit!

Without GWF, d12 has 1/12 chance of base damage 1 through 12, so each round is 1d12 + Strength Mod or 6.5 + 4 = 10.5 avg DPR.
With GWF, d12 has 2/12 chance of re-rolling, so 34 possible results. 1 and 2 are 2/34 each, every other number is 3/34 yeilding a mean of just over 6.79, so:
GWF, STR 18 (mod 4) yields 6.79 + 4 = 10.79 avg DPR.

Basically TWF lowers your available weapon dice type, but gives you 2 full attack actions for the price of your bonus action.

#Charts to lay out average DPR: Assuming you're not going to get more damage out of a bonus action (it does seem unlikely that you could, regardless of your build) it scales like this:

As you can see, even without magic weapons, GWF doesn't get the upper hand until Level 11, when you get the extra attack feature for the second time. And you need a flat +3 modifier to damage to keep TWF in the lead. At level 20, I did the math, and:

You'd need a +3 weapon and other flat modifiers that total 9 to stay ahead with TWF. If the only modifier you can use for it is STR, that would mean you'd need a STR score of 28 minimum. You're going to need some serious homebrew to manage that!

Of course, up to Level 19, you'd still be doing better with any Strength Modifier + Weapon Bonus combo that totals 7, so a STR 20 and +2 weapon would do. And that's 19 full levels.

Without GWF, d12 has 1/12 chance of base damage 1 through 12, so each round is 1d12 + Strength Mod or 6.5 + 4 = 10.5 avg DPR.
With GWF, rollin a 1 or 2 triggers a re-roll, returning on average 6.5. (I was initially confused about how to calculate this, so I had to ask this math.se question) Replacing those results with their average returns gives an average damage roll of 7.33, so:
GWF, STR 18 (mod 4) yields 7.33 + 4 = 11.33 avg DPR.
As Spear Carrier pointed out, using a 2d6 weapon synergises better with GWF as there are twice as many chances to get a re-roll. This brings the Greatsword's average damage up to 8.33, which gives 12.33 when STR Mod is added.