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I have a question about how the Far Strike Monk's ability to use a ki point to give his thrown weapons his unarmed strike damage works with hybridized splash weapons.

For reference:

Hybridization funnel, per d20pfrsd:

This two-spouted funnel is used to safely mix two alchemical splash weapons into a single flask. Using the vial requires 10 minutes and a DC 25 Craft (alchemy) check; a half-elf has a +5 bonus on this check. Failing the check means both splash weapon are destroyed. Success means the two materials are safely mixed into one vial that is the same volume as a normal splash weapon vial; when thrown as a splash weapon, the mixture has the effects of both component substances and creatures are affected as if hit by both. The mixture becomes inert after 24 hours. Only liquids may be mixed with the funnel. The bearer can use it to mix an alchemical splash weapon with either holy water or unholy water, but the Craft (alchemy) DC increases to 30; half-elves still get the +5 bonus on this check. The funnel does not work on potions, elixirs, extracts, or other materials. Mixing a substance with a similar or identical substance (such as alchemist’s fire with alchemist’s fire) has no effect. A mixture cannot be combined with another mixture.

Far Strike Monk's ki missile, per d20pfrsd:

At 5th level, a far strike monk can spend 1 point from his ki pool as a swift action to change the base damage dice of thrown weapons to that of his unarmed strikes. These weapons are also treated as ki focus weapons, allowing the monk to apply his special ki attacks to his thrown weapons as if they were unarmed strikes. This effect lasts until the beginning of his next turn.

The underground chemist isn't so important for quoting purposes, it merely allows the drawing of alchemical weapons as weapons.

My question is this:

When you use the FSM ability to increase the base damage die of thrown weapons, does it increase the damage of both components of the hybridized flask? For instance, on a level 5 FSM with a hybridized alchemist fire and acid flask, would the 1d6 fire and 1d6 acid damage increase to 1d8 fire and 1d8 acid for a total of 2d8? Or would the hybridized flask just count as one single thrown weapon and have a total of 1d8 damage?

Specifically, I'm interested in this portion of the Hybridization Flask: "when thrown as a splash weapon, the mixture has the effects of both component substances and creatures are affected as if hit by both." This seems to imply that you still have to roll both damages separately.

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    \$\begingroup\$ Note that if the latter applies it would mean that with the Throw Anything class feature the Alchemist could add twice its intelligence to the damages. Or did I miss something in your reasoning? \$\endgroup\$ – Anne Aunyme Jul 7 '17 at 8:53
  • \$\begingroup\$ This is certainly something I have pondered too. Note that underground chemists get this feature too. I believe this is the way it is meant to be designed, as the text of the hybridization funnel implicitly states that the creature takes damage as if hit by both objects. \$\endgroup\$ – Andy Taylor Jul 7 '17 at 9:15
  • \$\begingroup\$ A great question, I hope you don't mind but I edited for formatting to help keep your points clear. I also edited the last paragraph to be a little less 'bait for an agreement' to open it up to objectivity. If you think I severely altered the intent, feel free to roll it back or re-edit to use just some portions of my edit. \$\endgroup\$ – Ifusaso Jul 7 '17 at 12:00
  • \$\begingroup\$ @AnneAunyme even if the damage was tracked separatedly, you can only add your intelligence (or bonus dice from the alchemist class) once (FAQ). \$\endgroup\$ – ShadowKras Jul 7 '17 at 12:33
  • \$\begingroup\$ @ShadowKras: not if it's considered as two different attacks \$\endgroup\$ – Anne Aunyme Jul 10 '17 at 8:55
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Hybridization funnel allows you to mix the damage and effects of two different (liquid) alchemical weapons. The damage is not of a new type, but the same as the original, but applied on a single attack (like a flaming sword causing fire and slashing damage).

the mixture has the effects of both component substances and creatures are affected as if hit by both

Basically you can take the text of both alchemical weapons and apply both at your target. As an attack, this is still a single attack and will only benefit once from abilities and effects such as Point-Blank Shot or Throw Anything.

However, do note that alchemical weapons are ranged weapons (though they cannot be quick drawn), even if they lack a weapons table entry (officially, there is one on the SRD), and have a base damage dice. As such, Ki Missile can be applied to the effects of an alchemical weapon's damage, but not on additional effects (like the damage from catching on fire).

A splash weapon is a ranged weapon that breaks on impact, splashing or scattering its contents over its target and nearby creatures or objects.

As for the damage, the rules are not clear. But the developers are usually against abilities being applied twice or stacking of any kind not explicitly allowed, and as such, I would classify this effect as an increase on the damage dice step. Thus, you would be replacing the damage of both effects by your monk's unarmed damage, not each item separately as they are no longer two different weapons but one that causes the damage of both original flask's effects.

Being technically unclassified, alchemist bombs might be excluded as an option, but consult your GM. It is clear that you cannot funnel extracts (alchemist made potions) and other materials (when GM discretion steps in).

The funnel does not work on potions, elixirs, extracts, or other materials.

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  • \$\begingroup\$ I am tempted to change my answer about the damage dice step if i find more evidence about it. The reason is that replacing (1d6 acid and 1d6 fire) by (1d8 acid or fire?) would become a problem. \$\endgroup\$ – ShadowKras Jul 7 '17 at 12:31
  • \$\begingroup\$ This was my thinking too. This seems to be a pretty unique question and I'm having trouble finding evidence one way or another. I really do think that based on the wording of "as if hit by both" in the text of the funnel, that the die steps of both components should increase with ki missile. I'm hoping more people chime in with evidence and opinions, as I'm seriously considering this build for pathfinder society and would like some concrete evidence to guide my ideas, either way. \$\endgroup\$ – Andy Taylor Jul 7 '17 at 14:27
  • \$\begingroup\$ For Society, it is a good idea to ask on the society forums, as those receive feedback from the society team much faster than developers answers the rules forums. \$\endgroup\$ – ShadowKras Jul 7 '17 at 14:32
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Success means the two materials are safely mixed into one vial that is the same volume as a normal splash weapon vial; when thrown as a splash weapon, the mixture has the effects of both component substances

If it only has the normal volume of a typical splash weapon vial then it would probably use the same damage die as the normal of its kind and divide the roll by the different damage types. I believe this divide should also occur in the splash damage + intelligence modifier. So it would be (say acid/fire) 1d6 (increased to unarmed damage die)+int mod and 1+int mod splash divided as evenly as possible between the types. so a roll of 2 with a +4 intelligence modifier would be 3 acid and 3 fire with splash damage being 3 and 2 (Though I would make it fair by rolling percentile to determine which type gets the larger number. 1-50 being primary damage type and 51-100 secondary. In this case acid would be primary and fire secondary)

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RAW, roll the damages separately

That's explicitly what is stated in Hybridization funnel's rules: "as if hit by both". It also mean that thanks to the Alchemist's Throw Anything class feature ("An alchemist adds his Intelligence modifier to damage done with splash weapons") you would add your intelligence modifier to damages of each weapon.

However

This seems way more powerful than intended. The hybridization funnel is not even an expensive device and you could reasonably get it at lvl 1. Admitting you play an alchemist with 18 of Int (which is normal for a bomb thrower) you could get mini-nukes that cost 30gp and do 2d6+8 damages (10 of splash), and that's not even the maximum you can do.

As a GM I would ignore the RAW and rule that you consider the alchemical weapon created as a single weapon with base damages equal to those of the first weapon and bonus damages equal to the base damage of the second weapon. With this ruling you would do 1d8 fire and 1d6 acid (or 1d8 acid and 1d6 fire if you combine them the other way), plus once your Int modifier.

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    \$\begingroup\$ I have no problem with people considering my answer is of bad quality, but it would be nice to leave a comment so I know how to improve it. \$\endgroup\$ – Anne Aunyme Jul 11 '17 at 9:19
  • \$\begingroup\$ Commentary and opinion on how potent the combination is really have very little to do with answering the question. Consider also, that this ability requires you to mix the items first (with a reasonably high DC at low levels), takes ten minutes each time and only lasts for one day (so you can't just always have them mixed and ready to go), and requires the expenditure of a ki point to get the extra damage for exactly one round. You also need to be at least 5th level to use this combo - 5th level Far Strike monk. \$\endgroup\$ – YogoZuno Aug 31 '17 at 20:56
  • \$\begingroup\$ the potency is the reason why I suspect this to be not intended, it is fully part of the answer. A typical lvl 1 bomber alchemist has at least 1 rank, + 3 from class skill, +1 from class feature +4 from int: +9. This is before any kind of optimization or resource invested in this (hiring someone to help you, have a racial bonus on craft, a feat, a trait... or just "being a half-elf" so you get +5 or having more than 18 in Int which is quite easy to get if you have a decent point-buy). \$\endgroup\$ – Anne Aunyme Sep 1 '17 at 12:03
  • \$\begingroup\$ You should also have noticed that I am not talking about the monk combo but about what a regular lvl 1 alchemist would do if the RAW are applied. \$\endgroup\$ – Anne Aunyme Sep 1 '17 at 12:04
  • \$\begingroup\$ I don't really think looking at the power solely at level 1 gives a very complete picture. It's hardly game-shattering to give them a 2-die weapon that costs a minimum of 50gp, and requires 10 minutes to mix a single one, even at level 1. \$\endgroup\$ – YogoZuno Sep 5 '17 at 20:47

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