Can the vampire's Kiss interrupt a frenzying vampire?

Question

So in VTM:20th edition

Page 269 states with regards to a vampire using the kiss:

Once the Kindred breaks her vessel’s skin with her fangs, that vessel no longer resists the vampire (if he did in the first place).

It's even specified as part of the bite combat manoeuvre on page 276:

A player can declare her vampire’s bite to be a “Kiss” attack. A Kiss is resolved in the same way as a normal bite, but inflicts no health levels of damage. Upon connecting with a Kiss, the vampire may begin to drain the victim’s blood at the normal rate, and the victim is typically helpless to resist (see p. 269 for specifics).

The specifics being the quote on page 269 with the added addition of a willpower test for vampires allowing them to resist diablerie.

When performing a kiss on a frenzying vampire is the victim vampire still rendered helpless by the pleasure of the kiss? Does being frenzied offer protection to the affects of the kiss?

The pertinent rules would appear to be on page 298:

All difficulties to Dominate or otherwise mentally control a frenzied character are increased by two, and all difficulties to resist the effects of such mental control are reduced by two. The character never needs Willpower rolls to accomplish a feat, because the rage fueling the vampire’s actions is both a catalyst to heightened state of mind and a barrier against unwanted intrusions.

The combat systems including the kiss (Page 271) and the earning blood pool (page 269) rules are separate from the feats listed in the dramatic systems (Page 257) presumably to prevent frenzying vampires from succeeding in every combat encounter from force of will alone. Does resisting the effects of the kiss count as a feat?

My solution in play would be to allow it, at least long enough for other PC's/NPC's to restrain the frenzying vampire, being kissed doesn't take the vampire out of Frenzy afterall. Meanwhile the kissing vampire begins the process of becoming blood bound to the frenzying vampire. Which in it's own right introduces some interesting situations going forward.

Answer 1

Keep in mind that it is the beast that is largely in control during frenzy as it surfaces due to a trigger such as starvation, humiliation or pure anger. In this state things such as wound penalties and even Rötschreck are ignored as the beast fuels the body with rage and just keeps on going to either feed or kill. As you indicated this state makes the kindred less susceptible to mental control, but that is not what is happening here.

The effect of the kiss is a supernatural but physical reaction that is strong on mortals but a tad less powerful on other kindred. Taking into account that in a frenzied state the kindred ignores things such as crippling and near fatal wounds, I'd say the beast will not allow itself to be controlled by the effect of the kiss, which is frankly quite a lightweight effect compared to running around with several broken bones, bullet wounds and a caved in chest.

As a storyteller I'd certainly allow someone to attempt it, but they shouldn't be surprised when the frenzied kindred grabs them and bites back.

Animalism's quell the beast is always a good option. Otherwise throw some food or enemies at them to sate their thirst or anger thus removing what triggered the frenzy in the first place.

Answer 2

So it's no exaggeration to say this has occupied far to much of my free time over the past two days, the implications for diablerie were to great to ignore, it reached the point where I realised I must have made a mistake somewhere, and I had.

I think I've found the answer by combing through what I originally had stated.

I'm going to caveat this answer with the exception that as storyteller you are perfectly free to ignore the rules in chapter six and conduct things however you like. The introduction to that chapter states as much. The Frenzy rules give storytellers the freedom to mess with those rules. Lot's of storytellers I spoke to are very attached to the idea that a frenzy would trump the affects of the Kiss. Good on them.

My question was concerned with the rules in VtM:20, as printed. With that in mind when reading through the rules previously I misread one important piece of information. That is the roll to resist the effect of the kiss for a vampire. I thought it was willpower.

It isn't. Page 269:

Note: While Kindred find the Kiss pleasurable, they may resist it more readily than mortals can. Any Kindred, regardless of Willpower, may make a Self-Control/Instincts roll (difficulty 8) to avoid succumbing to the Kiss. This enables vampiric victims of diablerie (p. 293) to have a chance at fighting back.

Being frenzied doesn't prevent self control, although it's debatable if it might lower the stated difficulty to resist by two. As stated in the question. Page 298:

All difficulties to Dominate or otherwise mentally control a frenzied character are increased by two, and all difficulties to resist the effects of such mental control are reduced by two. The character never needs Willpower rolls to accomplish a feat, because the rage fueling the vampire’s actions is both a catalyst to heightened state of mind and a barrier against unwanted intrusions.

As a frenzying vampire must roll self-control regularly to try and bring themselves under control this is certainly not precluded by being in Frenzy. Additionally note the rules on Page 269 state a vampire may roll to resist the affects of the kiss. This indicates to me that the victim will decide even during Frenzy whether or not to succumb automatically to the pleasure induced by the kiss. Wording I'm sure was placed in so as to allow sensual consensual blood bonding.

Alternatively, and this is what I suspect most storytellers will go with, if a storyteller believes the beast is purely responsible for a character while in frenzy the frenzying character may roll self-control (ironically maybe) to resist, using the vampire's own self-control, which I'm sure it always would, a failure implies the Kiss affects them and that they give in to pleasure.

Does this break Frenzy? No the Vampire is still in Frenzy, which is not unreasonable, they're just having a good time. I would argue they wouldn't even be trying to bring themselves under control because now they are under the affects of the kiss. So a frenzying character is no closer to ending frenzy. And like I mentioned in the question, blood bonding will begin. The risk of blood bonding may be enough to explain why this isn't necessarily a common practice.

The Kiss can interrupt a frenzying vampire.