5
\$\begingroup\$

When using telekinesis to grapple, what is the CMD to escape? The spell doesn't specify the CMD, just the CMB.

Combat Maneuver: Alternatively, once per round, you can use telekinesis to perform a bull rush, disarm, grapple (including pin), or trip. Resolve these attempts as normal, except that they don’t provoke attacks of opportunity, you use your caster level in place of your Combat Maneuver Bonus, and you add your Intelligence modifier (if a wizard) or Charisma modifier (if a sorcerer) in place of your Strength or Dexterity modifier. No save is allowed against these attempts, but spell resistance applies normally. This version of the spell can last 1 round per caster level, but it ends if you cease concentration.

Should I assume it works the same as black tentacles?

The CMD of black tentacles, for the purposes of escaping the grapple, is equal to 10 + its CMB.

\$\endgroup\$
2
\$\begingroup\$

You use your CMD

Telekinesis:

Combat Maneuver: [...] Resolve these attempts as normal, except that they don’t provoke attacks of opportunity, you use your caster level in place of your Combat Maneuver Bonus, and you add your Intelligence modifier (if a wizard) or Charisma modifier (if a sorcerer) in place of your Strength or Dexterity modifier. ...

Since it doesn't specify anything for CMD, it uses your CMD, since that is what you'd normally use. Do note though, that you'd replace either your dex or str of the CMD check with your casting stat.


Some things to note.

Telekinesis:

Combat Maneuver: [...] you use your caster level in place of your Combat Maneuver Bonus ...

This means that, technically, the replacement of casting stat for str or dex does nothing as those contribute to your CMB, which your caster level replaces. As opposed to using your caster level as your BAB for the maneuver, which is probably RAI.

Grapple:

If you successfully grapple a creature that is not adjacent to you, move that creature to an adjacent open space (if no space is available, your grapple fails).

Technically, using telekinesis to grapple moves the creature adjacent to you.

\$\endgroup\$
  • 1
    \$\begingroup\$ While this is definitely RAW, I'm not sure it's RAI. It seems strange to me that such a high level spell would allow you to start a Grapple with such a huge bonus but not allow you to maintain that grapple with the same bonus. My guess is that the need for a CMD may have been overlooked since it is only needed for Grappling, and unlike with black tentacles where Grappling is the main goal, Telekinesis has many other functions. Unfortunately I have no evidence to back this idea up, so I don't feel like I should make my own answer... \$\endgroup\$ – GreedyRadish Aug 26 '18 at 7:47
  • 1
    \$\begingroup\$ Given that the minimum caster level is 9 and therefore range is at least 760', saying that using telekinesis to grapple will move that creature adjacent to you seems ridiculous (in addition to Greedy Radish's excellent points). While this may be RAW, GM fiat definitely needs to be invoked - if nothing else, adjudication is required re attacks of opportunity or lack thereof as the target creature is moved next to the caster. \$\endgroup\$ – KerrAvon2055 Aug 26 '18 at 8:55
  • \$\begingroup\$ if you are going with this view, i believe you are incorrect. not because RAW vs RAI but because, with this view my entire CMB is my caster level. this would leave the portion about the casting stats as a separate statement. my CMD is then 10+BAB+(Str mod or Dex mod) + Casting stat mod + size mod. which is not what your answer is saying \$\endgroup\$ – shufly Aug 26 '18 at 11:31
  • \$\begingroup\$ @shufly that is incorrect CMD is 10+st mod+dex mod+size mod + misc mod not 10 + CMD + dex or str + size mod + misc mod. If it were 10 + CMD you'd be correct. \$\endgroup\$ – william porter Aug 26 '18 at 12:53
  • \$\begingroup\$ @KerrAvon2055 Hence why I said technically, it's definitely not RAI, but it's something to note, especially for house ruling CMD to be CMB + 10 in a case like this. \$\endgroup\$ – william porter Aug 26 '18 at 12:56
1
\$\begingroup\$

The text is vague because its a holdover from past editions, where you compared check against check to win a grapple. As it stands now, you will have very conflicting results when trying to grapple using the spell and will see table variation, as each GM may rule it differently.

There is no clear solution here, other than a developer commentary on how it should work, which, unfortunately, is unavailable as Paizo's website is currently down for maintenance (for the entire week, apparently).

So here is what I would suggest you to do, make it work similar to Crushing Hand, which creates a big hand of force to grapple your enemies and crush them to death and is clear that you use your caster level for both CMB and CMD, but using the stats given by Telekinesis.

This means that your CMD would be 10 + your caster level + ability modifier (int for wizards, cha for sorcerers, etc), and it doesn't pull the target to you, as we have many spell effects that will grapple a target and not mention that they are moved at all.

\$\endgroup\$
  • \$\begingroup\$ I think that you are not really grappling the target, the spell's effect is is a risky justification for what is, essentially, a perfectly reasonable house rule. (I mean, that justification could result in the GM having arguments about spells like invisibility and sanctuary.) \$\endgroup\$ – Hey I Can Chan Aug 26 '18 at 16:35
  • \$\begingroup\$ @HeyICanChan While that is true, Black Tentacles won't pull targets to the caster either. The spell simply doesn't mention where the targets are really moved to, if moved at all (which I always ruled that they arent). \$\endgroup\$ – ShadowKras Aug 26 '18 at 16:58
  • \$\begingroup\$ @ShadowKras I agree with HeyICanChan since Black Tentacles summons a group of tentacles which grabs vs concentrating really hard on grabbing you with my mind. I agree though, that telekinesis shouldn't pull the enemy towards you. If any of the developer commentary you mentioned has anything on that, it sounds like a great addition to the answer. \$\endgroup\$ – shufly Aug 28 '18 at 1:26
  • \$\begingroup\$ @shufly I will return to this answer once Paizo website is back online. \$\endgroup\$ – ShadowKras Aug 28 '18 at 1:53

Your Answer

By clicking “Post Your Answer”, you agree to our terms of service, privacy policy and cookie policy

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged or ask your own question.