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Expanding on a question I posted not too long ago:

Could a character use the Wish spell to simulate the Amnesia spell on multiple characters, or is it way too overpowered or against the rules?

I'm the GM of the game and the party is soon going to face the "final boss" and his minions, who are not holding back. One of the minions is a pit fiend, and he is the one who could use Wish.

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  • \$\begingroup\$ Are you saying you want the Pit Fiend to Mass Amnesia the party so his minions can basically wipe the floor with the now-level-one party? \$\endgroup\$ – Ifusaso Oct 29 '18 at 11:22
  • \$\begingroup\$ I'm not saying i WANT TO, but things could end up that way. As I wrote in another comment, I was wondering what's the best way - and rules legal-ish way - to defeat the opponents when Wish is the only way to do so and the pit fiend is cornered and has to use it. And by the way it's not like i won't give the party saving throws to resist the effect. If they all fail that's another matter and then it will probably end up as a TPK. But as i said they all have to fail, which is possible but improbable. \$\endgroup\$ – Elmoserpe Oct 29 '18 at 12:59
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Yes, but it is dependent on the DM.

Wish

You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment, at the GM’s discretion.)

Side note: A pit fiend may only use Wish once per year. Likely they would use a resource as a last resort, and then only if their wish slot hadn't been used sometime in the previous 12 months doing various evil pit fiend things. Also, as the DM, how important is it to create the specific combat scenario your trying to accomplish?

Wish powers are very flexible and open ended and it is usually the DM that puts the limiter on their application and use. So basically with this question you are asking is it okay to give yourself permission to use wish in this way. Is there another way? Could you use some artifact that can be fought over during the course of a combat? Can achieve the tactical shenanigans your looking for without resorting to saying "My Pit Fiends Wish for it"?

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  • \$\begingroup\$ I am not looking to create a specific combat scenario, it's just that I think a Wish spell - if used in combat - should produce the best effect for the party using it. Or at least the one who's casting the spell would try to obtain such an effect and I was wondering about what is the best way to achieve victory if Wish was the only way to achieve it. But as a GM I wouldn't like to say "I use wish, you end up on the moon". Also I wondered if a Mass Amnesia-like effect could be categorized as a 9th level spell since most mass spell are 4 levels higher than their single target counterpart. \$\endgroup\$ – Elmoserpe Oct 29 '18 at 2:12
  • \$\begingroup\$ I would argue the Wish spell would used for GTFO if he is overwhelmed. Or warping the party into the sealed lair of the Tarrasque or something. Part of taking on a known wish granter is figuring out how to get the creature to expend it's wish before the fight takes place (Have your parties thought of this?) Pit fiend only gets one wish, so it's probably a life insurance policy more than an offensive boom (unless there is more than one wish available). \$\endgroup\$ – Play Patrice Oct 29 '18 at 2:17
  • \$\begingroup\$ But why would a Pit Fiend use Wish to escape when it has unlimited Greater Teleports? Also the party it's still trying to figure the opponents out since they didn't realize they were facing something like a pit fiend as a minion until they saw the remnants of a Meteor Swarm spell. They are a little reckless for not studying the possibilities. \$\endgroup\$ – Elmoserpe Oct 29 '18 at 2:29
  • \$\begingroup\$ As an example, my lvl 8 group has three separate ways of stopping teleport from happening. I'm sure by the time we are powerful enough to fight a pit fiend we will have even more. \$\endgroup\$ – Ling Oct 29 '18 at 11:14
  • \$\begingroup\$ That's entirely possible, but if you can stop a Greater Teleport chances are you can stop a Wish. And that isn't the problem, the thing is that as I said the PCs are kinda rash, i doubt they will prepare to stop a Teleport, or any kind of spell for that matter. They sorta have a "Damage before tactics" mentality save for the Oracle, who is a buffer/healer \$\endgroup\$ – Elmoserpe Oct 29 '18 at 13:05
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Like for the previous question...yes ofcourse you can use mass amnesia, even without saving throw, if you are the GM.

The point is, in the same exact way for every spell that can mess up players characters and players experience is to do something like this with a plan in mind.

What happen the second after the spell take his effect? I give you some advices:

  • Don't let them roam without a purpose, be proactive and create a story focused on this event.

  • Don't do something like this if they can recover just with an heal spell. You are wasting their time and your time.

  • Don't use wish. Wish is a spell that players can use and an effect like this is clearly out of wish scope so don't use that. Use rituals. Use a forgotten book with inside a powerful curse. Create something, an artifact, what do you want but do not use a regular spell from a regular book if you want to create a unique effect.

  • If you want such a powerful effect and such a negative condition to happen you need to be prepared. This event must (MUST) be fun for your players. Not boring. Not tedious.

I give you an example. In your same exact situation (right before the final boss fight) i want to show the power of the boss (not the pit fiend, the final boss do something like this) and i decide to kill all of them without saving throws. They just die with a dramatic description of their deads. What happen next? They wake up in a strange realms (maybe the realm of dead, maybe not) and maybe they are ghosts, maybe they are souls, and they start to discover what the hell just happened talking with other souls/ghosts/whatever. They have been killed by the most secret and powerful ritual ever created by mortal hand...a ritual their enemy created long long time ago. They are trapped forever, dead but stucked, and there is no way to escape...except for a rumour...or a legend...or maybe something strange in this realm like a lake, a mountain, something.

What am i doing? I'm creating a quest starting from this event. They will fight in this realm? Maybe, maybe not. They will level up? Probably yes. They will find/obtain something cool ? Ofcourse yes. How long it should be? 2/3 sessions max. Remember they have a boss to fight and they want to fight him.

And after they escape? They are now immune to that ritual! So they will fight the boss and he will not have is secret weapon to use against characters.

With your mass amnesia build up a story, this is what i'm saying. If you don't want to spend time to create a fun experience for your players...don't do something like that.

Never.

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  • \$\begingroup\$ I already considered the options you proposed, I even had an idea regarding demiplanes and such, but the problem is that when we get to the "final boss" it's time to finish the campaign, not to make it longer. Side note: I'd also like to find the least homebrew-ish solution possible, just as a personal preference though. \$\endgroup\$ – Elmoserpe Oct 29 '18 at 13:10
  • \$\begingroup\$ Well if you don't want homebrew there is no way Wish can do something like that without a saving throw (a Will saving throw since Amnesia is will based). At such high level probably the spellcaster will pass the saving throw (for a cleric or a druid it will be really easy in reality) and the result will be they will waste 2 or 3 spell to cancel the amnesia, sleep for recover the lost spells and then go. So...what's the point in doing this other than wasting time? \$\endgroup\$ – Mouza Oct 29 '18 at 13:46
  • \$\begingroup\$ Well of course I wanted to give them a saving throw, otherwise that would just be the same as the sentence i wrote in another comment "I use wish, you're on the moon".The point is that they wouldn't have the time to recover with a Heal spell or similar. Once they become affected by the spell - if successful - the final boss and the minions will try and press the advantage, maybe eliminating or disabling the healer first, maybe by keeping him from casting or counterspelling him. After all, the pit fiend also has unlimited Greater Dispel Magic and great grapple abilities. \$\endgroup\$ – Elmoserpe Oct 29 '18 at 13:53
  • \$\begingroup\$ Also of course sleeping is out of the question since the pit fiend regeneration makes him able to fight every 7 minutes. \$\endgroup\$ – Elmoserpe Oct 29 '18 at 13:57
  • \$\begingroup\$ And what are the drawback on the pit fiend? Using wish in that way is not safe...there are no drawback for the fiend? What is preventing the cleric or the wizard to mass teleport out all characters in the same istant he perceived something happened? There a lot of if, in my opinion, and there a lot of chance you will kill them all without a fight in this way. But you know your players better than me for sure so...good game and have fun! ^^ \$\endgroup\$ – Mouza Oct 29 '18 at 14:04

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