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While reading through monster stats and 1st edition adventures, I noticed that at some point, PCs should dish out 2dX instead of only 1dX damage; else, an adequate monster will become a serious threat to the whole party and almost unbeatable.

  • For example: if I take a Wyvern (CR 6), with 3 heroes doing about 2D per hit it goes down pretty nicely - the heroes take quite a few blows but it's still manageable. But, if the heroes only do 1D per hit... then it takes double the time to take care of the Wyvern and will probably result in 1 or 2 PC deaths.

Based on the monster stats already released and a few adventures, do we have any list per level of what the expected number of damage dice, to-hit bonus, saving throw bonus, and class DC is, per level?

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  • \$\begingroup\$ Not sure that simple example actually holds, as there is a LOT more complexity in this system. Fighters, for instance, will almost always be a couple of points ahead of others on to hit, and likely ahead on weapon damage output as well. \$\endgroup\$ – YogoZuno Sep 10 '19 at 4:31
  • \$\begingroup\$ I'm still confused by "old adventures", this is a new game system, which adventures are you referring to? Also what method are you using to determine the outcome of fights such that you know the difference between 1dX and 2dX? \$\endgroup\$ – linksassin Sep 10 '19 at 5:33
  • \$\begingroup\$ @linksassin I meant PF1 adventures with old ones (thus old adventures as they wer not for the current version, as far as I'm aware only 2-4 are for the current version?). I set the chars at their optimal range from each other and "dish it out". Did it a few times during the playtest and also later on. But as mentioned I'm mostly interested in what would be the expected average damge a char should be able to dish out per turn per level. (when I headcalc things I always take 1.5 hits per turn for a fighter.....as the chances for making 2 no less 3 hits are.....not very high). \$\endgroup\$ – Thomas E. Sep 10 '19 at 8:23
  • \$\begingroup\$ So are you using encounters from 1e adventures and stats from 2e creatures? Or is it a trend you noticed in 1e and are trying to determine if it is also present in 2e? \$\endgroup\$ – linksassin Sep 10 '19 at 8:27
  • \$\begingroup\$ @linksassin I took stats from 2e creatures and also used a few encounters I created according to the guidelines in the PF2e Rulebook for CR calculation of encounters. As adbventures (good ones) should also take that into consideration I think the CR guidelines are a good base there. \$\endgroup\$ – Thomas E. Sep 10 '19 at 8:58
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Pathfinder 2e has a version of Bounded Accuracy

Paizo created their own system of Bounded Accuracy; the intent is that for any given roll, the possible outcomes are within a reasonable scope. This is counter to D&D 3.P logic of allowing creatures to hyper specialize. The end ideal is that a small bump of one or two bonus is significant and could legitimately swing the odds into or against your favor.

Most rolls and a number of static statistics (even including Armor Class) in Pathfinder 2e use your proficiency bonus and one ability score, and may add a small amount of other bonuses, such as Item bonuses. In order to estimate appropriate statistics, we have to understand these bonuses.

  • Proficiency is HD +2/4/6/8 depending on level of proficiency
    • Trained proficiency is pervasive beginning at the first level of play
    • Expert proficiency is uncommon at 1st level (used for some Saves and Perception primarily) but is easily available starting at 3rd level
    • Master generally becomes available at 7th level
    • Legendary becomes available at 13th level
  • Ability Scores tend to be easily risen to 18 (+4) and difficult to raise further.
    • Specializing in one Ability Score should result in a total of 24 (+7) - 18 on creation +1 x4 for Ability boosts +2 for an Apex item
  • Item bonuses range from +1 to +3 (or +1 to +9 for armor)
    • +1 bonuses are mostly seen starting at level 3
    • +2 bonuses are mostly seen starting around level 7-10
    • +3 bonuses are mostly seen starting around level 13-15
    • Armor bonuses from +1 to +6 are "available" to starting characters (if they can be afforded)
    • Magical armor increases the value by +1 to +3 about 3 levels later than other

I made a table that I believe is accurate, by-the-book. I do not have extensive knowledge at levels beyond 1-2 to confirm these values. Paizo will have more robust rules for creation in the DMG (see the next section).

$$ \begin{array}{|r|r|} \hline Level & Class DC & Saves & Skills & Totohit & AC & Damage \\ \hline 1 & 7 *1 & 7 *2 & 5 *2 & 7 *1 & 17 *1 & 1d(4\text{ to }12) +4\text{ or }1d4+4 \\ \hline 3 & 9 *1 & 9 *2 & 8 *2 & 9 *1 & 19 *2 & 1d(4\text{ to }12) +4\text{ or }3d4+4 \\ \hline 7 & 15 *2 & 14 *3 & 15 *3 & 14 *3 & 24 *3 & 2d(4\text{ to }12) +4\text{ or }7d4+4 \\ \hline 10 & 18 *2 & 17 *3 & 19 *3 & 18 *4 & 29 *3 & 2d(4\text{ to }12) +5\text{ or }10d4+5 \\ \hline 13 & 24 *3 & 21 *4 & 23 *4 & 22 *4 & 33 *2 & 3d(4\text{ to }12) +6\text{ or }13d4+6 \\ \hline 16 & 28 *2 & 25 *4 & 27 *4 & 27 *3 & 38 *2 & 3d(4\text{ to }12) +6\text{ or }16d4+6 \\ \hline 20 & 33 *4 & 30 *5 & 31 *4 & 30 *3 & 42 *3 & 4d(4\text{ to }12) +7\text{ or }20d4+7 \\ \hline \end{array} $$

Notes about the table:

  • The smaller number preceded by the asterisk* shows an estimated range for "typical" use. It probably does not include the full range seen in play.
  • I assume a normal amount of investment (level-appropriate items, appropriate Ability score, average-high proficiency for the level)
    • Notably, I assume lower Ability Scores for lower levels of Saves and Skills than Attack and Armor because they "key" off of a range of Abilities whereas it is easier (almost a given) that you will specialize in your offensive Ability and choose a Dex-appropriate armor.
    • Class DC will almost always be as high as possible, leading to a smaller gap. However, not all classes attain Legendary Proficiency in their DC, so the gap increases at level 19.
  • You may notice that To-hit and AC's ranges increase and decrease separately from the more linear Saves and Skills. This is because Skills/Saves are pretty standardized across the classes, but the classes gain weapon and armor proficiency at varied times. I made an effort to "average" the level at which these bonuses had larger gaps and the times when they converged.
  • The two damage ranges are typical PC Strike damage and typical Cantrip damage. Cantrips typically cost 2 actions (and are therefore usually only used once per turn) while Strikes can be performed up to 3 or in some circumstances 4-5 times per turn.
    • I did not and don't intend to try to typify potential blasting damage from higher level spells. Consider checking the Pathfinder 1e Spell Benchmarks' 2e counterparts
  • This table does not account for any form of "buffs" such as any of a plethora of spells. These tend to add +1 to +3 each, following bonus type/stacking rules.

@Delioth brings up that Paizo has released the (current draft, as of Oct 9, 2019) DMG rules for Monster creation.

It includes Low, Moderate, High, and Extreme values for Ability Modifiers, Perception, Skills, AC, Saves, Hit Points, Resistance/Weakness values, Attack bonus and Damage, Spell DC and Attack bonus, and guidelines for creating Special abilities.

Notably, my numbers at lower levels seem to be fairly accurate to their Moderate values, but run a little low at higher levels. I definitely recommend referencing it if you intend to make a boss creature or high level monster.

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  • \$\begingroup\$ It may be more valuable to reference the actual pre-release GMG Monster and Hazard Creation rules that Paizo's released, which gives an actual tables of guidance for what numbers GMs ought to use. It's available as a free PDF, though it may require a paizo account (not sure on that): paizo.com/community/blog/… \$\endgroup\$ – Delioth Nov 8 '19 at 20:11
  • \$\begingroup\$ I didn't know that was actually released. Thanks for the heads up \$\endgroup\$ – Ifusaso Nov 9 '19 at 19:23
  • \$\begingroup\$ One thing that also exsits btw are +4 weapons (mostly the weapons of CR20+ demons). +5 arent spotted so far. \$\endgroup\$ – Thomas E. Nov 10 '19 at 8:06
  • \$\begingroup\$ My charts were made from the PC side. The DMG sneak peak should help with creating particularly powerful (over level 20) enemies \$\endgroup\$ – Ifusaso Nov 10 '19 at 15:43

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