• No undead my gm rules that outside of ethereal enemies like ghosts all undead use their con mod normally and ethereal enemies use wisdom mod

  • Dips are allowed but only for 3-4 levels total and the main function cannot scale off class levels. For example water dancers’ Nereid’s Grace

  • I start at level 8

  • I would prefer to focus on feats since my dm lets us feat buy in exchange for drawbacks.

  • My dm does not have alignment restrictions on classes but does place them on deities.

Nereid’s Grace (Su) When unarmored and unencumbered, a water dancer adds 1 point of Charisma bonus per monk level to his Armor Class as a dodge bonus. If he is caught flat-footed or otherwise denied his Dexterity bonus, he also loses this bonus. He uses his Charisma score instead of his Wisdom score to determine the size of his ki pool and the DC and effects of monk class features. This replaces the bonus feat the monk normally gains at 1st level.

What I've got so far:

Enthusiast cleric

AC Bonus (Ex) When unarmored, an enthusiast adds her Charisma bonus (if any) to her AC and her CMD. These bonuses apply to AC even against touch attacks or when the enthusiast is flat-footed. She loses these bonuses when she is immobilized or helpless, when she wears any armor, or when she carries a shield

loremaster oracle

Sidestep Secret (Su): Your innate understanding of the universe has granted you preternatural reflexes and the uncanny ability to step out of danger at the very last second. Add your Charisma modifier (instead of your Dexterity modifier) to your Armor Class and all Reflex saving throws. Your armor’s maximum Dexterity bonus applies to your Charisma instead of your Dexterity Link


Lore Keeper (Ex): Instead of encyclopedic knowledge, you learn most of your information through tales, songs, and poems. You may use your Charisma modifier instead of your Intelligence modifier on all Knowledge checks. link


Self Delusion (Feat): You may add your Charisma modifier, rather than you Wisdom modifier, to your Will saving throw bonus.


Scion of War (Feat): You use your Charisma modifier to adjust Initiative checks instead of your Dexterity modifier.

Other Sources

  • 2
    \$\begingroup\$ Relevant (possible duplicate?): The Most Charismatic Man in the World \$\endgroup\$
    – Oblivious Sage
    Sep 27, 2019 at 21:35
  • \$\begingroup\$ @OblivousSage related and somewhat helpful but not a duplicate none of those very tight restrictions apply which means I can't get the best answer possible. \$\endgroup\$ Sep 27, 2019 at 22:00
  • \$\begingroup\$ @ObliviousSage I would like you to leave it there since the title isn't self explanatory thus making it hard to find and it might help someone in a similar situation. \$\endgroup\$ Sep 27, 2019 at 22:52
  • 1
    \$\begingroup\$ @NautArch not op is defined differently in our game because it has a lot of special rules so best ignore that. Honestly idk how to define op yet like can we can trade a feat for unlimited flight with perfect maneuverability. But we aren't allowed immunities. I'll edit the post to reflect that. Okay fixed. \$\endgroup\$ Sep 28, 2019 at 1:26
  • 1
    \$\begingroup\$ @NautArch Removed it. Anything else I can fix to get the vtc removed. \$\endgroup\$ Sep 29, 2019 at 13:38

1 Answer 1


Paladin is the best class for this, because divine grace is arguably the best single class feature in the entire game. The enlightened paladin can get Cha-to-AC when unarmored, but it’s limited to paladin level so ignore that. Smite evil also adds Charisma to attack rolls, but since you’re limited in who you can apply that to and how often you can do it, you’ll want better for that.

“Better” in this respect is Divine Fighting Technique, for Desna’s Way of the Shooting Star to get Charisma to both attack and damage so long as you’re attacking with a starknife. This also applies to CMB. Since adding an untyped ability bonus to something twice does not stack in Pathfinder, this makes Divine Fighting Technique redundant with smite evil. There is a larger problem, though: Desna is a chaotic good goddess, and Divine Fighting Technique requires that your alignment exactly match your deity’s. Chaotic good characters cannot be paladins. If you are not actually playing in Golarion, however, perhaps the Way of the Shooting Star will be made available from a lawful good deity. Or, possibly, your GM will institute variant-alignment paladins, which would certainly improve the game in general.

If forced to choose, divine grace is vastly superior to Divine Fighting Technique.

Oracle can get Cha-to-AC either when unarmored, or when when armored but limited by the armor’s max Dex. These are both untyped ability bonuses, as is the enthusiast cleric you link, so they do not stack with each other or with that.

The other major source of Cha-to-stuff bonuses is being undead: they replace all uses of Constitution with Charisma. So you would get Cha to HP, Fortitude, and so on.

  • \$\begingroup\$ i thought untyped bonuses stack and bonuses of the same type don't \$\endgroup\$ Sep 27, 2019 at 21:41
  • 1
    \$\begingroup\$ @MageintheBarrel Yes, but there's an additional rule saying you can't add a given ability score bonus to something more than once. \$\endgroup\$
    – Oblivious Sage
    Sep 27, 2019 at 21:44
  • \$\begingroup\$ @MageintheBarrel That rule only applies to untyped bonusese—if you get an insight bonus equal to your Charisma bonus or something, that will stack with adding your Charisma bonus to that thing. It’s a dumb rule ham-handedly shoved into the ruleset years after things had been written without such a rule, but the problem it fixed was a real one. \$\endgroup\$
    – KRyan
    Sep 27, 2019 at 22:27
  • 1
    \$\begingroup\$ "Divine Fighting Technique requires that your alignment exactly match your deity’s." RAW, this is debatable. Divine Fighting Technique was printed in two different books, and only one of them (not the one featuring Desna's) lists the alignment requirement. \$\endgroup\$ Sep 27, 2019 at 23:18
  • 1
    \$\begingroup\$ @JohnMontgomery Interesting, but unfortunately probably not much of a go here. Desna’s is the only Divine Fighting Technique worth a feat. \$\endgroup\$
    – KRyan
    Sep 27, 2019 at 23:34

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