I've recently noticed a key line in the text of Alter Reality.

The deity can render a magical or supernatural effect permanent.

It seems obvious to me that this should allow for a non-Pun Pun method of attaining an arbitrarily high amount of points in each ability score, but none come to me.

My first idea was to exploit Epic Spellcasting's Fortify seed and give myself a +5 bonus of every type that I can think of, but I have stacking concerns and this does not meet my "arbitrarily high" criterion. What other options are there?


3 Answers 3


Alter Reality is not particularly useful for this

There are lots of ways to get arbitrarily high stats. For example, the Fortify Seed indeed enables arbitrarily-high stats on its own, given sufficient time (i.e. equally large amounts of time, or time abuse). Manipulate Form is merely one method among many on that count, though it is particularly useful in that it gives you as much as you want of everything.

Alter Reality can be used in combos for this

For example, Alter Reality can be used to make the Caster Level increases from Death Knell-- which are essentially unbounded except via duration on account of self-stacking-- permanent. This very large (or arbitrarily large if we can produce creatures to slay, e.g. via pudding farming) increase in effective CL could then be converted into a stat with any spell that grants a caster-level dependent increase to said stat.

Permanent spells won't stack with themselves if they wouldn't normally, so you need effects that can stack with themselves to get arbitrarily large gains out of Alter Reality.

  • \$\begingroup\$ Thanks, I can now see my mistake. I wrongly assumed that the benefits from non-inherent bonuses were also capped at +5, despite there being a long list of magic items that contradict that assumption. With that knowledge alone, you're quite right to say that the job is already done. Simply use the Fortify seed for an arbitrarily high non-inherent bonus to your stats, and use Alter Reality to make it permanent. \$\endgroup\$
    – J. Mini
    Commented Feb 6, 2020 at 20:17
  • \$\begingroup\$ I'll have to check the rulings on how Death Knell stacks with itself, but you can probably cut out the middleman on creating things to kill - Alter Reality is already capable of making living things. \$\endgroup\$
    – J. Mini
    Commented Feb 6, 2020 at 20:22

Yes, actually. It isn't even that complicated nor does it need any epic spells, you just need the Book of Vile Darkness from 3.0, which has no errata/update for 3.5 - it might be difficult to get your DM to allow, but per official ruling it's legal for 3.5 games.

  1. Find a 1-HD (yes, this matters) humanoid, cast True Domination on them, bring them somewhere secluded (likely your divine realm), and have them lie in place.

  2. Cast Power Leech on them, choosing a stat other than Constitution - the reasoning for this is that they don't die when it hits 0. (Just in case, I will be assuming that you have to pick the drained stat at casting, and cannot change on the fly, but it does not specify).

  3. Make the effect on them permanent, rest the required 10 minutes, then make the effect on yourself permanent. You don't need to rest just yet, no rest-required actions are needed from here on and you're allowed to delay it as long as you want as long, you just can't use any rest-required actions until it's been done.

  4. Cast Greater Restoration on them, bringing their ability score back to its original value. You then continue draining where it left off, as while the spell can't drain from a score of 0, the spell didn't stop. Continue draining them dry and spamming Greater Restoration on them until satisfied. As you do not need to eat, sleep, or breathe as a deity, this can go as long as you want, though you should try to keep them alive as well - figure out the spells to do so yourself.

  5. Repeat steps 2-4 for each stat except Constitution.

  6. If you wish to drain Constitution, you're a bit more limited - cast it with the Persistent Spell metamagic (which you can do with Alter Reality), which requires 6 rounds of rest instead of 600 (10 minutes). After finishing the rest, cast Greater Restoration on them, make your effect permanent, and proceed as above, being extra careful to be sure their Constitution never reaches 0. Unfortunately, this has a limit of 24 hours, but that's exactly +14400 to Constitution. That's arbitrarily high enough.

Congrats, you now have as high stats as you're willing to sit there long enough for, with no epic spells nor any rule finagling necessary. Just Alter Reality.

Note: Unfortunately, your ultra-obscene stats do not protect you from Dispel Magic, which is able to cut all of these stats away permanently, nor does it apply in an antimagic field, but that applies to everything made permanent with Alter Reality. You'll need to find a way to either protect yourself from dispelling or kill the dispellers first with Hand of Death (no rest needed, but saving throw allowed which they can natural 20 to succeed on) or Life and Death (no saving throw but rest required).

  1. You could Keep the Idea you had and just make your stats higher.
  2. Permanently raise the stats of someone in your party.
  3. Insta kill one enemy
  4. Fully heal a fallen ally
  • 1
    \$\begingroup\$ An accompanying description explaining these options would really help this answer a great deal. \$\endgroup\$ Commented Feb 6, 2020 at 20:49

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