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One of my players is attempting to use Spellhunter, Magical Lineage, and Blissful Spell. His goal is to make Shocking Grasp a level 0 spell/cantrip. Is this interaction legal RAW?

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    \$\begingroup\$ You should probably add why you think this would or would not work, or what you suspect this might not. Knowing that will let answerers give you better explanations to help you. \$\endgroup\$ – Someone_Evil Jun 7 at 21:04
  • \$\begingroup\$ Also, Welcome to RPG.SE! Take the tour if you haven't already and see the help center or ask us here in the comments (use @ to ping someone) if you need more guidance. Good Luck and Happy Gaming! \$\endgroup\$ – Someone_Evil Jun 7 at 21:04
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Yes, The important part is RAW-legal

Unlike Magical Lineage, Wayang Spellhunter was never errataed to prevent spell-level lowering. In combination, the two can indeed lower a +1 spell level adjustment metamagic to -1, which can indeed make a 1st-level spell a level 0 spell, which, for some classes including the Magus, gives it special properties unique to 0-level spells (like not getting used up when cast).

That doesn't mean this should work

Just because the rules say something doesn't mean that is a good idea for your game. Running this trait in accordance with the rules makes it much more powerful than most other similar traits. You should consider denying it on the basis of game balance, or suggesting/allowing your other players to use similar exploits.

Note as well that shocking grasp is one of the weaker options for this combination-- it just does melee damage-- and that every spellcaster can have at most one spell specialized in this way.

If this build is likely to be overpowered, consider applying the errata to magical lineage to Wayang Spellhunter as well, as e.g. d20pfsrd suggests. If it is within reason for your game, it is, in fact, RAW and can work fine. If it is underpowered, suggest the player also use a feat on Sacred Geometry(quicken spell) so they can do it as a swift action instead, or some other potent metamagic-- Intensified Spell is particularly popular for a shocking grasp magus.

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    \$\begingroup\$ I'd add one more caveat; being a "0th-level spell" is not the same as being a Cantrip, RAW. While that is the logical conclusion, you'll note that classes that have spellcasting have both a Cantrip (or Orison) and Spells/Spellcasting class feature. Is this overly RAW-specific? Probably, but no more than reading Wayang Spellhunter as allowing you to reduce the overall level of a spell. \$\endgroup\$ – Ifusaso Jun 8 at 1:27
  • \$\begingroup\$ Blissful is a decent choice, but it's also worth noting that this combo on Magus works with Intensified spell, making them the most generic Magus possible but allowing them to do so no cost instead of as a low level spell cost. As you've already noted, how optimized/exploitive a given group is can affect how useful this actually is. \$\endgroup\$ – Ifusaso Jun 8 at 1:31
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    \$\begingroup\$ @Ifusaso Yeah, some people make that argument, but you'll note that "cantrips, or 0-level spells," in fact does define 0-level spells as cantrips and vice-versa. The attempt to draw a distinction between them is textually wrong. It's accurate that a distinction totally could exist, but it does not in-fact exist for any class with cantrips/orisons-- they all define 'cantrip' or 'orison' to mean the same thing as '0-level spell' and indicate that the terms can be used interchangeably. \$\endgroup\$ – Please stop being evil Jun 8 at 5:30
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It's legal RAW.

Whether or not it's overpowered depends on your game. Most people think 'damage' is super cool and killing things is the definition of usefulness but i'd rather have a guy who can do 3d6 lightning damage at level 3 than a kobold fey-bloodline sorcerer who points his finger, says 'go to sleep', and wipes an encounter every single time a non mindless enemy appears.

Coup de grace with a scythe is 8d4, which is considerably more impressive, and you can have the whole gang doing the coup de grace if your enemies are all asleep.

Even random buffs like Enlarge Person tend to be pretty strong (put that on a fighter with a spear and combat reflexes and just trip anything that tries to get close), and arguably stronger than just doing damage due to all the little efficiencies that stack up.

But if you've got the kind of group that takes 5 combat rounds to finish off an ogre and thinks using a Tower Shield is OP supah cheese then shocking grasp spam might be too powerful.

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  • \$\begingroup\$ I don't feel like this adds anything not provided by the other answer \$\endgroup\$ – Ifusaso Jun 9 at 7:30

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