For the purpose of spells that target objects, not creatures, do victims of Flesh to Stone count as objects? I am especially interested in Shrink Item, followed by Stone to Flesh to get a less-than-Fine-sized character.

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    \$\begingroup\$ It may be relevant (at least to your table) that Paizo clarified this in 2nd Edition. Of course these rules have no real bearing on 1e, but it does show what their designers consider correct now. \$\endgroup\$ Aug 13, 2020 at 3:35
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    \$\begingroup\$ You may be interested in this question and its answer. \$\endgroup\$ Aug 13, 2020 at 6:09

2 Answers 2


Creatures affected by Flesh to stone or similar effects (gorgons for example) are in a special case. For many purposes yes, they are objects, but for others, they still count as creatures.

In the given scenario, what would happen is you have a small statue that looks remarkably lifelike, but once they are returned to their fleshyness, they are no longer a valid target for shrink item and the spell is still in effect but isnt affecting them anymore. The lingering aura of the spell would only effect things like detect magic and dispel magic. Now, there is some confusion as to what happens if said person becomes stone again. Would they re-shrink because the spell is still in effect, or stay the same size?

I have asked a question about being able to alter creatures while they are stone.

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    \$\begingroup\$ Do spells automatically end if you are no longer a valid target? \$\endgroup\$ Aug 12, 2020 at 22:59
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    \$\begingroup\$ @Baskakov_Dmitriy I have to say yes because spells like bulls strength (which only works on creatures, not objects which corpses are) are still in effect if the person is revived while the spell duration still lasts. Sure the spell doesnt give any bonus to an invalid target (whats a dead corpse (not undead corpse) going to do with extra strength?) but its duration is not up so it continues. There is actually a question on this rpg.stackexchange.com/q/36876/23058 \$\endgroup\$
    – Fering
    Aug 12, 2020 at 23:10
  • \$\begingroup\$ To clarify, while you're a creature you count as a creature and while you're a statue you count as an object. But effects that would only affect you in one form are passive when you're not a valid target. Correct? \$\endgroup\$ Aug 13, 2020 at 3:33
  • \$\begingroup\$ You may want to quote Timed Durations \$\endgroup\$ Aug 13, 2020 at 3:46
  • \$\begingroup\$ Where does the game say that an effect is suppressed when the effect's target later becomes invalid? I thought the game specifically didn't say that. I mean, if you're playing with constant targeting anyway, there are alternatives like the effect may be suspended (time spent as an invalid target doesn't count toward the spell's duration and the effect awaits the target's return to validity) or simply end (target's invalid so the effect says, "Nope! Gotta go!") or something else entirely. Unless I'm missing something, the game's silence doesn't make suppressed the only possible result. \$\endgroup\$ Aug 18, 2020 at 9:06

Flesh to Stone only maybe makes objects

Read this answer.

To recap: the published text of Flesh to Stone definitely does not turn a creature into an object, but that creates huge problems so the creative director says instead it totally does make objects instead of creatures, actually, and because of Pathfinder's emphasis on said statements as a sort of pseudo-errata (and possibly because in this specific case he's right that not changing it has huge largely negative consequences) that's pretty much how it works.

Obviously, if there's no object, there's no shrink object.

This works otherwise

Spells don't stop working when you become an invalid target; nothing says that happens and lots of spells just would not function at all were that the case. Being a valid target matters when a spell comes into effect, so if you're an object when you get shrunk you would still be shrunk after a Stone to Flesh got rid of that petrification. Assuming you used to be Fine, you'd now be Fine-3. The spell could even be made permanent, and your body given a mechanicless clothlike composition via a similar sequence of events (adding in permanency and replacing Stone to Flesh with Break Enchantment).

That said, getting buff spells on normally invalid targets is pretty high-op stuff, and I wouldn't expect this to be comfortable for everyone at every table-- check about intended power levels before you start busting out stuff like this (and, of course, the abilities that reward you per size category for being small/smaller than your adversaries per category of difference)

Note also that going below fine or above colossal, while totally a thing that can happen, is not well defined in the rules. There's gonna be a lot of extrapolating formulae, or a lot of weirdness (e.g you either have a crazy-high stealth score because extrapolation or an effective size modifier of +0 because 'Fine -3' is not in the list).

  • \$\begingroup\$ Could you cite that creatures smaller than fine and larger than colossal are supported? My understanding was that those are hard limits (eg casting Enlarge Person on a colossal humanoid would not make them colossal+, but they would still gain the Size bonuses/penalties) even though they are now 'larger than' colossal. \$\endgroup\$ Aug 13, 2020 at 14:12
  • \$\begingroup\$ @Ifusaso Let's say there was some general rule limiting being bigger than colossal, for example (this would make sense as an inference because kaiju). You cast Enlarge Person on a colossal humanoid. Enlarge Person's size growing ability supercedes any general rules regarding size alterations, so the colossal creature grows anyways. Unlike in 3.5, sizes beyond the limits aren't supported in the sense that they work well, but they are supported in that they happen. What actually happens when you do this is not well-defined \$\endgroup\$ Aug 13, 2020 at 14:46

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