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I was experimenting with building a Thor-like Human Fighter in Pathfinder 2e. I'm picking a mixture of feats that fit well for both melee and ranged, because Thor likes to throw his hammer, Mjolnir. I noticed the feat Double Shot, which reads

Requirements You are wielding a ranged weapon with reload 0. You shoot twice in blindingly fast succession. Make two Strikes, each against a separate target and with a –2 penalty. Both attacks count toward your multiple attack penalty, but the penalty doesn’t increase until after you’ve made both of them.

If I have a Returning (Light) Hammer, does returning imply Reload 0? Because returning reads

Usage: etched onto a thrown weapon When you make a thrown Strike with this weapon, it flies back to your hand after the Strike is complete. If your hands are full when the weapon returns, it falls to the ground in your space.

While Reload [x] reads

[The number x] indicates how many Interact actions it takes to reload such weapons. This can be 0 if drawing ammunition and firing the weapon are part of the same action.

So...

  • it returns following the Strike
  • there are no Interact actions involved in the Return
  • regardless if it was a successful or failed Strike

That seems equivalent to a Reload 0. Thus enabling "Thor" to throw his hammer multiple times per round.

So, to repeat, does a Returning rune imply Reload 0, particularly for the sake of taking the feat Double Shot?

As a side note, unfortunately I can't find a feat combination that would allow him to "fly" by throwing his hammer and having him holding on to it.

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  • \$\begingroup\$ Interesting question, excited to see if there are any suggestions as to how some of these abilities can be achieved \$\endgroup\$
    – Ben R.
    Dec 24 '20 at 17:18
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    \$\begingroup\$ @Ben R. I did find the Dancing Rune, which allows a weapon to fly to nearby enemies and make Strikes against them. That somewhat echoes how Thors hammer sometimes appears to have a mind of its own. \$\endgroup\$
    – Sumner18
    Dec 24 '20 at 18:58
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Returning does not mean Reload 0

Most weapons with the Thrown trait like the Dart, have a reload of "—". This means that the weapon is not reloaded, but rather drawn with an interact action, as mentioned in the reloading rules, then thrown.

The returning rune eliminates the need of drawing a new weapon to replace the one you just throw, so you can make as many strikes with your thrown weapon as your actions allow. This does not change its reload value (it it did, it would say so).

Double Shot feat designates ranged weapons with a explicit reload of 0, like longbows, shortbows and shurikens (the shuriken is a special case, the only thrown weapon with a listed reload value of 0). A reload of 0 means that the action of drawing ammunition and firing the weapon are part of the same action. The feat Double Shot can be read as drawing two projectiles (arrows or shurikens) at once, then making two consecutive strikes without stoping to reload.

So no, you cannot use Double Shot with thrown weapons other than shurikens. On the other hand, if you use shurikens, a literal reading of the rules says that you can indeed use the Double Shot feat (and the Triple shot feat) with a single returning shuriken, as it would fly back to you after each strike and in time for the next (how it would manage to do that in time when you are doing several strikes in "blindingly fast succession" is left to interpretation...).

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  • \$\begingroup\$ So, as a follow up; would you need two shurikens to use Double Shot? Or one with returning? The reload 0 seems to imply two, but if it's returning to your hand anyway... \$\endgroup\$
    – ESCE
    Dec 28 '20 at 17:43
  • \$\begingroup\$ Literal reading says one shuriken with returning is enough, as the shuriken would fly back to your hand after the first strike is done and in time for the second. \$\endgroup\$
    – MACN
    Dec 29 '20 at 10:24
  • \$\begingroup\$ Interesting that shuriken are no longer destroyed on use. Definitely check with your GM before assuming they'll allow it to operate that way with Returning \$\endgroup\$
    – Ifusaso
    Dec 29 '20 at 16:41
  • \$\begingroup\$ @Ifusaso I do not remember Shurikens ever being destroyed on use. Ammunition (arrows, crosbows bolts, etc.) sure do (since this errata), but shurikens follow the same rules as the rest of thrown weapons. \$\endgroup\$
    – MACN
    Dec 29 '20 at 23:42
  • \$\begingroup\$ I was comparing to Pf1e with that comment, not germane to the answer. I still maintain that it good form to consult with your GM before using feats that seem to be (near) simultaneous attacks using the Returning property. I don't forsee any problem with it, but just out of social propriety. \$\endgroup\$
    – Ifusaso
    Dec 30 '20 at 16:12

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