Can a Cavalier declare a Ride-by attack and then use their mount to overrun the target (thus continuing the movement through the enemies square)?
- Is it enough for the Cavalier to have the Ride-by Attack? Would the mount need Charge Through?
- Who makes the overrun attempt (check)? The Cavalier (with his own stats), or the mount?
- What happens if the overrun attempt fails? Does movement end in front of the target, and does the target get an AoO since Ride-by failed?
Ride-by Attack states:
When you are mounted and use the charge action, you may move and attack as if with a standard charge and then move again (continuing the straight line of the charge). Your total movement for the round can’t exceed double your mounted speed. You and your mount do not provoke an attack of opportunity from the opponent that you attack.
As a standard action, taken during your move or as part of a charge, you can attempt to overrun your target, moving through its square. You can only overrun an opponent who is no more than one size category larger than you. If you do not have the Improved Overrun feat, or a similar ability, initiating an overrun provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver. If your overrun attempt fails, you stop in the space directly in front of the opponent, or the nearest open space in front of the creature if there are other creatures occupying that space.
Charge Through states:
When making a charge, you can attempt to overrun one creature in the path of the charge as a free action. If you successfully overrun that creature, you can complete the charge. If the overrun is unsuccessful, the charge ends in the space directly in front of that creature.
My interpretation so far was:
- Declare Ride-by attack
- Attack when in range (10 feet with lance)
- Continue movement (Ride-by Attack)
- Attempt overrun as part of mount's charge action (or free with Charge Through)
So as follows (C = Cavalier, T = Target, x = empty square)
x x x x T x x x x x C x
x x x x T x x C x x x x
When overrun succeeds, continue moving through enemy square as per Ride-by attack (not taking any AoO). When overrun fails, stop movement in front of enemy, and take 1 AoO (as Ride-by failed) if AoO is applicable.
As Ride-by Attack is worded, nothing stops the Cavalier from doing a Charge, attacking with a lance (reach), and then using the Ride-by Attack to continue the movement for 1 more square (thus being adjacent to the enemy). The mount is then in melee range and should be able to make an overrun attempt and thus continuing the movement through the enemy square, if successful?
(Also, am I correct in my understanding that using Ride-by Attack, I can charge → attack with my lance → move one more square → have my mount make one more attack?)
Am I missing some ruling, FAQ or errata here?
These are statements by my GM in regards to this question:
On a related note, it is questionable (IE ask your GM) if your mount can Charge Through your target, stop after them and then melee attack them.
I do not wish to attack with my mount when doing the overrun. The question in regards to the mount making an attack is when NOT using overrun. On an overrun only the Cavalier would attack, then the mount would overrun the target, and continue to move (so that the cavalier can charge again on the next turn). No need for the mount to stop and attack.
When I asked my GM about this, his replies where:
- Your mount may not make an attack during your Ride-by attack, because it needs to stop to attack. Making an overrun attempt is an attack, even if it is done as part of a charge.
- I know pretty certain that you can't mix actions in that way. Ride-by attack is a special action that allows you to take a standard action during your charge. Your mount can't make "a normal" charge at the same time.
- The moment you charge, you won't know if you can use your Ride-by attack, because you won't know if your mount would make the overrun, and using Ride-by attack determines if your opponent would get an AoO if it has 10+ feet reach.
- The inteded way to use 'Overrun' is that you, the rider, make the overun check using your mount's strength, but you (not the mount) makes the check. You're trying to get free actions by letting your mount make the overrun check.
Add in: Knowing you, you plan to stack all your damage on your charge attack. Adding in a CC on top of that becomes a little oppressive.
When I asked if adding in "Charge Through" on my mount would resolve this issue he replied:
You still wouldn't know if you can use ride-by attack beforehand. You have to declare that beforehand. Ride-by attack is a special action. An altered charge action to be precise.
But I'm not sure that's right. Since (given the wording) Ride-By attack would allow me to charge within my attack range (10 feet with a lance) attack with my lance, and then (as per Ride-by attack) move another 5 feet. So even if my mount would fail an overrun attempt, the fact that we moved 5 feet after the lance attack makes it still a ride-by attack, right?
After another talk with my GM (he also saw this thread) these where his final remarks:
There's an argument to be made that you can use ride-by attack the way you propose, when working strictly RAW (Ride-by attack, move another 5ft after your attack, just so it's technicly a ride-by attack).
It most definitely is the rider who makes the overrun (that's why there's feats like Trample). I was wrong about using your mount's strength, that's from 3.5.
You are currently the most powerful character of the party, by far, and will be for a long time.
He went on to tell me I'm a powergamer and that he tends to rule against me because of that. I am not to bring this up again.
I think he's wrong. My interpretation is in line with ifusaso's statement. Sadly there's only so much I can do in regards to my own case.
I hope someone else finds this helpful!