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The Bestial Mutagen gives you a penalty to AC and Ref, but also unarmed attacks, and an item bonus to these. The bonus to attack is 1 higher than what you could get on a level-apropirate weapon, which is nice, but the damage is really lacking after about level 4, more than offsetting the attack advantage:

  • level 4 (4.5 vs 7 damage)
    • Bestial Mutagen: 1d8, or 1d6 agile
    • Weapon with Striking rune: 2d6 or 2d4 agile
  • level 12 (5.5 vs 10.5 damage)
    • Bestial Mutagen: 1d10, or 1d8 agile
    • Weapon with Striking rune: 3d6 or 3d4 agile

Based on this Mutagenists are better off just using weapons, but Bestial Mutagen is supposed to be their signature ability. As Pathfinder 2 is one of the best balanced games I have ever seen, I am pretty sure I am missing something, but what?

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    \$\begingroup\$ Note that Alchemists are subject to some debate as to whether they are underpowered. From what I've seen, at least, a significant portion, if not the majority, believe they are underpowered. Even Paizo admitted a bit to it by buffing them in the first round of CRB errata. \$\endgroup\$
    – ESCE
    Mar 9, 2021 at 16:11
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    \$\begingroup\$ Further note that mutagen alchemists are generally acknowledged to be significantly underpowered, from a combat standpoint. The "reasonably viable, but maybe a tch weak" combat alchemist is the bomb-thrower, who manages to be viable through a combination of bomb-buffing feats and handing useful elixirs to other members of the party. \$\endgroup\$
    – Ben Barden
    Mar 9, 2021 at 21:58
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    \$\begingroup\$ Basically, the mutagen alchemist is a buffer who can sort of fight but not well. The people who want true combat alchemists don't yet have their builds enabled. I'm personally hoping for something like the pathfinder 1 archetypes, but I don't expect them any time soon regardless. \$\endgroup\$
    – Ben Barden
    Mar 9, 2021 at 22:00

2 Answers 2

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The unarmed attacks of Bestial Mutagen are 'your attacks' (as opposed to Battle Forms); they can be modified by character abilities and, most notably, Handwraps of Mighty Blows (specifically the Striking/Greater Striking/Major Striking effects)

As you invest these embroidered strips of cloth, you must meditate and slowly wrap them around your hands. These handwraps have weapon runes etched into them to give your unarmed attacks the benefits of those runes, making your unarmed attacks work like magic weapons. For example, +1 striking handwraps of mighty blows would give you a +1 item bonus to attack rolls with your unarmed attacks and increase the damage of your unarmed attacks from one weapon die to two (normally 2d4 instead of 1d4, but if your fists have a different weapon damage die or you have other unarmed attacks, use two of that die size instead).

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    \$\begingroup\$ So from level 13 it is -1 attack behind a Monk (master unarmed vs expert), with the same cost (handwraps). Still pretty bad. \$\endgroup\$
    – András
    Mar 9, 2021 at 12:34
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    \$\begingroup\$ Alchemist attack bonus is pretty much always behind once you hit double digits. They need to use their weapon proficiency to hit (it never increases past expert, like a caster, but they don't get spell attack rolls), and their class DC is only slightly better than most martials. \$\endgroup\$
    – WeirdFrog
    Mar 9, 2021 at 14:26
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    \$\begingroup\$ @András it's not intended to "replace" a Monk; flexibility often comes at the expense of power. In this case, Bestial Mutagen can still be super powerful... hand it to a monk, for instance, and they are hitting at 1 above their level, while still having Fighter-in-Plate levels of AC. Even then, 1 below is not all that bad. Not great, certainly, but you're merely a status bonus to hit (from Inspire Courage, Bless, a Marshal, etc) from being as accurate as a Monk without having to invest all that much. \$\endgroup\$
    – ESCE
    Mar 9, 2021 at 16:09
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Alchemists are not primarily martial characters -- though with such Mutagens they are good enough to contribute to the party in that capacity.

Instead, they are a much more flexible class, and fortunately or unfortunately, they pay for it.

Yes, the Alchemist can specialise in Mutagens, but they don't give up their ability to make healing potions, bombs or other utility items in order to do so.

Instead the Alchemist might be better viewed as a prepared 'spell caster', that has more flexibility than most prepared spell casters, but is strongest in buffing and debuffing. On that note, playing into that buffing nature by giving this mutagen to a Monk, or unarmed Fighter is something they would definitely appreciate! -- The Monk cannot give you their ability to fight, but the Alchemist's power is one that they can share (note that there is a typo that has been corrected in errata -- Mutagens only effecting you is something that was true in the Playtest, but is not true in the final rules ... but some text snuck through unedited).

That all said, Alchemists can struggle a little in the very early levels (in my opinion, this is due to a lack of cantrip equivalents).

I would not be surprised if we eventually see class archetypes for the Alchemist that swap some of it's breadth of options for more focused abilities.

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    \$\begingroup\$ A class whose main contribution is to give others stuff, is best used as an NPC \$\endgroup\$
    – SpearCarrier.no2
    Mar 15, 2021 at 8:12
  • \$\begingroup\$ That is very much a personal preference! I often enjoy classes that buff or debuff others. \$\endgroup\$
    – Isaac
    Mar 15, 2021 at 9:20
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    \$\begingroup\$ I have nothing against buffing during encounters. My problem is with buffing that is done best before combat. \$\endgroup\$
    – SpearCarrier.no2
    Mar 15, 2021 at 11:01
  • \$\begingroup\$ That is a fair concern. Though I'd argue they still have plenty to do and contribute - that wasn't my only point - they are a very flexible class. And in terms of buffing and debuffing, debuffing pre-encounter is certainly a lot harder work than debuffing during it! (by which I mean, I was saying they are also good at debuffing, and it can generally be assumed that is done during encounters) \$\endgroup\$
    – Isaac
    Mar 15, 2021 at 13:03

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