2
\$\begingroup\$

One of my players is playing a rogue and from time to time it happens that he goes behind a wall and ends the turn there. When he start his new turn is he automatically hidden and therefore can he use the Sneak Action to consider an enemy flat-footed ?

From "Observed" detection state

In most circumstances, you can sense creatures without difficulty and target them normally. Creatures in this state are observed. Observing requires a precise sense, which for most creatures means sight [...]

And a little bit further

If you can’t observe the creature, it’s either hidden, undetected, or unnoticed, and you’ll need to factor in the targeting restrictions.

I've already read the Sneak and Hide action and I've understood that you must first use the Hide action and then the Sneak action but to me is unclear what happens if you end your turn behind an high wall or a corner and start your turn in the same state.

\$\endgroup\$

1 Answer 1

4
\$\begingroup\$

Yes, sort of

As a small matter, your Rogue isn't actually hidden, but undetected, since the wall prevents the enemy from seeing the Rogue at all and the enemy has no idea what square the Rogue would be in behind the wall. Undetected starts with:

When you are undetected by a creature, that creature cannot see you at all, has no idea what space you occupy, and can't target you,

Having a wall between the Rogue and an enemy usually makes it so that the enemy cannot see the Rogue (obviously some special senses can get around this). If your Rogue were to have some way to see through the wall and shoot the enemy (some Ethereal Sight and Ethereal Arrow combo, perhaps, that I'm not aware of), the enemy would be flat-footed. From Undetected:

When you're undetected by a creature, that creature is flat-footed to you.

This means that your Rogue can indeed Sneak somewhere while still (pending a Stealth roll) being Undetected. Note, they have to end their movement with some form of cover, concealment, or invisibility; see this line from Sneak:

You don’t get to roll against a creature if, at the end of your movement, you neither are concealed from it nor have cover or greater cover against it. You automatically become observed by such a creature.

So simply running behind a wall is rarely going to actually give the Rogue a chance to make a Sneak Attack, assuming they have nothing else to hide behind. But it does grant them the ability to Sneak, since they'd be Undetected at the start of their movement. From Sneak:

At the end of your movement, the GM rolls your Stealth check in secret and compares the result to the Perception DC of each creature you were hidden from or undetected by at the start of your movement.

TL;DR

Yes, pending the normal Sneak caveats. Although your Rogue is actually Undetected at the start of their turn, not simply Hidden.

\$\endgroup\$
6
  • 1
    \$\begingroup\$ The rogue would not be Undetected unless their opponent is Deafened or otherwise unable to use an imprecise sense to detect the rogue. By default, creatures in pathfinder 2e have sight as a precise sense (can get people Observed) and hearing as an imprecise sense (can get people Hidden). \$\endgroup\$
    – Delioth
    May 4, 2021 at 18:53
  • 1
    \$\begingroup\$ @Delioth I guess you could make an argument for that, yes. It seems to me that even an imprecise sense (such as human hearing) would not be enough to know the square of a creature behind a wall, since the sound would be bouncing off of the wall. In that case, the enemy could probably Seek to find the creature. From Imprecise Sense: "It might be undetected by you if it’s using Stealth or is in an environment that distorts the sense, such as a noisy room in the case of hearing. In those cases, you have to use the Seek basic action to detect the creature." (imo, wall == distorting environment) \$\endgroup\$
    – ESCE
    May 4, 2021 at 20:09
  • \$\begingroup\$ I would not consider a creature that's moved to the other side of a wall automatically undetected, personally, as it seems to be intended as a status for creatures that are successfully overcoming opponents' Perception (which requires sneak/hide actions, according to their descriptions). I see your argument (that they're not directly observed) but don't see that jiving with Hide/Sneak existing. \$\endgroup\$ May 5, 2021 at 2:07
  • \$\begingroup\$ @Ifusaso Hidden instead of undetected? How would you manage this situation at your table? (if I can ask ofcourse) \$\endgroup\$
    – Mouza
    May 5, 2021 at 7:26
  • \$\begingroup\$ @Mouza My GM does not formally allot the Hidden nor Undetected conditions to creatures unless they perform an action that provides them it explicitly (sneak, hide, gain invisibility) and I'm not sure I would either. However, we primarily play online with dynamic lighting effects, so in hindsight it is essentially the same as the undetected condition (the player token or creature loses sight of the target and does not know their exact location, extending to the player themselves). So on second thought, this answer seems more correct in application than I originally felt \$\endgroup\$ May 5, 2021 at 11:46

You must log in to answer this question.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .