Today, our Toreador Senechal had us deliver the beating heart of a Ravnos to the Nosferatu Duke and Sheriff of the town, well made up in a present basket while the body was kept by the Senechal.

I know that this is a typical feat of Serpentis 5/8 (which makes Setites so dang hard to kill) and might possibly be achieved with flesh forming...

What other Discipline(s) or combinations thereof would allow one to create this fate worse than death of having the heart removed from the chest and brought to another place without having the vampire in question meet their final death?

  • 1
    \$\begingroup\$ My first thought would be Vicissitude, but I haven't found anything linked to that. And AFAIK, ripping someone ELSE's heart out would be Serpentis 8, not 7 \$\endgroup\$ Nov 11, 2021 at 15:26
  • \$\begingroup\$ @JulianaKarasawaSouza that's why I had "might possibly be achieved by [fleshforming]" ; though yes, misread the 8 as a 7. \$\endgroup\$
    – Trish
    Nov 11, 2021 at 19:32
  • \$\begingroup\$ yeah, I left it as a comment because I couldn't find any evidence corroborating that even Vicissitude could do this at any level below 10 (at this level it is basically a plot device) \$\endgroup\$ Nov 11, 2021 at 20:51
  • \$\begingroup\$ It might be helpful if you clarified exactly what needs to be achieved here. Would it count if the heart was removed but then didn't have any further effect on the vampire (i.e. staking it would not cause paralysis)? Or do you want exactly the same effect as the Serpentis 5 discipline to be applied by some other means? \$\endgroup\$ Nov 11, 2021 at 21:54
  • \$\begingroup\$ @Gandalfmeansme it just needs to be removed and deliverable like the Senechal had ordered - if it can be staked was not tested, but it was unquestionable the very heart that was formerly in the chest of the Ravnos and it most certainly wasn't there anymore. \$\endgroup\$
    – Trish
    Nov 11, 2021 at 21:57

1 Answer 1


There is a V20 Dark Ages Thaumaturgy ritual that will do this. The larger ritual is for removing the thaumaturge’s own organs, but you can do a limited version on another vampire. This ritual is specific to The Followers of Set like Serpentis, but isn’t part of that discipline and can theoretically be learned by any thaumaturge who can steal the secret.

Level Five: Cheat The Scale of Hades

“This ritual allows the witch to remove the heart (as well other vital organs) from his body entirely…”

“It is possible to undertake this ritual only partially, stopping with the removal of the heart. Indeed it is possible to perform the ritual upon another Cainite. A vampire is perfectly able to move about without a heart…”

p 311 V20 Dark Ages

Benefit for your target Ravnos:

  • Can’t be staked or diablerized through the usual means since the heart isn’t there
  • Frenzy rolls difficulty reduced by 2

Drawbacks for your target Ravnos:

  • Can be staked or diabelorized remotely
  • Any exposure of the heart to sunlight or flame destroys the Ravnos
  • \$\begingroup\$ In other words: the thaumaturgy ritual is effectively a way to gain the Serpentis 5 effects? \$\endgroup\$
    – Trish
    Nov 12, 2021 at 18:00
  • \$\begingroup\$ This aspect of the ritual is almost exactly the same as Heart of Darkness, yes. \$\endgroup\$
    – Dana
    Nov 12, 2021 at 21:12

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