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After thinking over the feedback I got from Champion Subclass Alteration, I went over and rejiggered a few thing of the alterations I was planning with the Champion subclass to streamline and address issues that had made themselves known.

The point of these alterations and what my design goals were to address the following issues:

  1. Fix the Remarkable Athlete feature's issue of punishing player skill choice.
  2. Give non-combat stuff at level 3 that has low multi-class strength.
  3. Make the Champion "Survivory" at low levels ​in a balanced manner.
  4. Make its lackluster level 10 feature have a small oomph to it.
  5. Retain the simplicity and general appeal of the subclass.

Do these changes match the design goals above in a balanced manner? And if there are issues, can you explain what makes them problematic? (I'm including unaltered traits for completeness and to avoid confusion on what will and will not be in here.)


Champion Subclass

Versatile Training

Beginning when you choose this archetype at 3rd level, you gain the following:

  • Your weapon attacks score a critical hit on a roll of 19 or 20.
  • When you roll initiative, gain temporary hit points equal to your fighter level.
  • Choose one of your Starting Fighter Skill Proficiencies. You may add 1.5 times your Proficiency Bonus (round up) to any ability check that uses the chosen skill.

Remarkable Athlete

Starting at 7th level, choose up to two skills you are Proficient with from the Fighter Proficiency Skill list and your Background Proficiencies. You may add 1.5 times your Proficiency Bonus (round up) to any ability check that uses the chosen skills.

  • You also add half your proficiency bonus (round up) to any Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution check you make that doesn't already use your proficiency bonus.
  • In addition, you can increase the distance you cover when jumping by a number of feet equal to you Strength modifier for running long jumps and half your Strength modifier (rounded up) for running high jumps.

Adaptive Training

At 10th level, you can choose a second option from the Fighting Style class feature. You may switch this fighting style with a different one at the end of a long rest.

You also gain Proficiency in Dexterity saving throws.

Superior Critical

Starting at 15th level, your weapon attacks score a critical hit on a roll of 18-20.

Survivor

At 18th level, you attain the pinnacle of resilience in battle. At the start of each of your turns, you regain hit points equal to 5 + your Constitution modifier if you have no more than half of your hit points left.

You don't gain this benefit if you have 0 hit points.

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2 Answers 2

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A bit complicated

I think the appeal of the Champion is that it is very simple to play, with no fiddly parts to keep track of, and static boni that always apply. What you have looks OK but a bit complex, this may be a result from the many different objectives you made for yourself.

Level 3

If you need something in addition to improve survival, the level hp are an elegant way to curb multiclassing abuse, but are extra math and dealing with all the issues of "temporary hitpoints" that are confusing to many players. Is there something simpler? How about useing the Second Wind feature a second time in a day -- this would likewise be limited in effectiveness by the fighter level, and uses a mechanism that aready exists.

If you need something skill based, could you let them pick an additional physical skill to be proficient in? This again would re-use simple, existing mechanisms.

Level 7

If Remarkable Athlete is too meh, how about Expertise on two Str/Dex/Con based skills they are proficient in? Is this too strong due to grappling? It certainly would reward their skill pick choices, and uses an established mechanism. (I'm a bit wary of Expertise as I think it can break bounded accuracy, which may be OK for other skill checks but could be problematic in combat).

Level 10

I really like adding the Dex save proficiency: it is simple and elegant.

The other change you made is more complicated, and also does not make much narrative sense. How can they be an expert in a fighting style they trained for months, then suddenly in another one and forgetting the former? If you need to pile on more, you could simply let them choose 2 additional fighting styles.

Level 18

You are right, who cares about Survivor ... most characters never get to level 18. No need to fiddle.

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  • \$\begingroup\$ Hmm, that was helpful. Going with extra HP/level was something I thought of, but I wanted something that kinda emulate the, always ready for a fight feel that it gets at later levels. Hadn't thought about Second Wind, will give that a look. The skill is something I wasn't that married to honestly, was a bit of an ad hoc way to mitigate that RA discouraged athletic Champions (quite off-theme). Would having it be a bonus equal to half the player's PB which gets added to physical ability checks that don't already received a halved or doubled PB simplify it? \$\endgroup\$
    – Joe D.
    Feb 12 at 19:08
  • \$\begingroup\$ @JoeD. I think that is what you have in your draft, right? I think that would not be broken or anything, so if you are using this for your home game, why not try it and see how it goes. \$\endgroup\$ Feb 12 at 21:03
  • \$\begingroup\$ It's more of a direct manipulation of the PB, like Expertise, in its current form. I am curious though, what about the current changes make it stray a bit too far from it's simplicity? \$\endgroup\$
    – Joe D.
    Feb 15 at 3:12
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Overall, well, good

To sum up, this is relatively good way to bring champion up-to-date, but:

  1. Versatile Training - I do not know why would you increase skill bonus by 1.5 proficiency. Either double the proficiency or scrap this part at all, even without it 3rd level is very strong now. Why? Well, because it is not used in official sources. You have features(jack of all trades for example) that add half your proficiency. You have normal proficiency, and then you have double proficiency/Expertise. Nothing really gives 1.5, so this just strike me as blizzare. Thats why I suggest going with expertise or without it at all.
  2. Remarkable Athlete - as above, one more skill and one expertise would be more appropiate than 1.5 proficiency.
  3. Adaptive Training - dexterity saving throws are the most common saving throws in the game, and relate with mostly damage. Damage you can take, you as a fighter have big pool of hit points. I believe this is both too strong a feature and out of place for what it gives you, but it is true to the idea of this subclass. Although, second fighting style that you can change is quite good on its own. Let's see this for a example: samurai do not get battle value from increasing WIS, so their bonus usually will still be decent, but not great. DEX for Champion is more appealing to boost, giving them excellent saves, or decent if they go STR builds. Moreover, WIS saves protects from multitude of debilitating effects, like charm or paralysis, that are a bane of martial classes, where DEX is mostly damage, which you can take. So in terms of "power" they are similar, but samurai gets something decent and interesting, while champion gets something decent/great and dull. But once again, it is thematically good feature.

So, those are my thoughts on this.

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  • \$\begingroup\$ Would you mind elaborating as to why you deem 1.5 less appropiate? \$\endgroup\$
    – Akixkisu
    Jan 17 at 13:12
  • \$\begingroup\$ I'd be interested in knowing that as well. And may I hear the reasoning for removing the skill in Versatile Training? A number of other Fighter subclasses get expertise with a set skill, this gives flexibility in choice, but weaker. \$\endgroup\$
    – Joe D.
    Jan 17 at 19:35
  • \$\begingroup\$ Also, how is the Dexterity Saving throw proficiency out of place? I can see it being strong, but requires 10 levels minimum. Samurai gets Wisdom Saving Throw proficiency at the same level \$\endgroup\$
    – Joe D.
    Jan 17 at 19:39
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    \$\begingroup\$ @Akixkisu Well, because it is not used in official sources. You have features(jack of all trades for example) that add half your proficiency. You have normal proficiency, and then you have double proficiency/Expertise. Nothing really gives 1.5, so this just strike me as blizzare. Thats why I suggest going with expertise or without it at all. \$\endgroup\$
    – Cezaryx
    Jan 18 at 9:51
  • \$\begingroup\$ @JoeD. Samurai do not get battle value from increasing WIS, so their bonus usually will still be decent, but not great. DEX for Champion is more appealing to boost, giving them excellent saves, or decent if they go STR builds. Moreover, WIS saves protects from multitude of debilitating effects, like charm or paralysis, that are a bane of martial classes, where DEX is mostly damage, which you can take. So in terms of "power" they are similar, but samurai gets something decent and interesting, while chmpion gets something decent/great and dull. But once again, it is thematically good feature. \$\endgroup\$
    – Cezaryx
    Jan 18 at 10:00

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