Martial Spirit stance with Improved Trip and Knockdown

Question

Crusader with the Martial Spirit stance that also has the feats Improved Trip and Knockdown. If the crusader hits for over 10 points of damage, they would be allowed to trip the target. If the trip is successful, they would get another strike on the foe due to Improved Trip.

The question is: would the crusader be healing themselves 4 or 6 points of healing from Martial Spirit? Do both the touch attack to trip and the follow-up attack from Improved Trip each count as an attack that they would get credit for?

Answer 1

Rules as written, Knock-Down allows an attack dealing 10+ damage to trigger a trip “attack,” which starts with a touch attack, and then Improved Trip allows a follow-up attack against the tripped target. That’s 3 melee attacks, so martial spirit heals 3 times (for 2 hp each). That healing may be applied to the crusader or any ally within 30 feet.

That said, everyone I’ve ever played with has treated the 10+ damage attack as replacing the touch attack to start a trip. That is, with Knock-Down, instead of starting a trip with a zero-damage touch attack, you can make a regular attack and as long as you deal 10+ damage, you start the trip. Rather than having another touch attack at that point, we just have you roll your opposed Strength check to trip the target. Played this way, there are only two attacks, the initial one and the follow-up from Improved Trip, so martial spirit only triggers twice. The opposed Strength check definitely does not trigger martial spirit.

I think either way is fair enough, but points in favor of nixing the touch attack are:

• It saves time rolling. Note that touch attacks are generally extremely reliable, particularly against a foe you just struck with a non-touch attack, so removing the touch attack doesn’t appreciably improve Knock-Down.

• It seems more accurate to the narrative—with Knock-Down, you are tripping with your 10+ damage attack. So why would you roll a separate attack? I guess you could argue that your 10+ damage attack broke your opponent’s guard enough for you to sneak in an extra attack, but that seems like a stretch. And the feat is called Knock-Down, after all.

• It avoids weird corner-cases like this.

Another approach I’ve seen people take is to require attacks that trigger martial spirit (and aura of triumph and all of the healing strikes) be real attacks that actually deal damage. I don’t love this—particularly if you consider the awesome possibility of Stormguard Warrior’s combat rhythm being used with them, since that definitely seems like it should qualify. On the other hand, allowing zero-damage touch attacks to trigger martial spirit and aura of triumph does allow you to pretty much automatically heal the entire party to full, for free, after every fight, by just hugging a lot (starting and dropping grapples). In a game where a wand of cure light wounds obviates inter-combat healing as early as 2nd level, though, I’m not sure how much anyone should care.

Answer 2

RAW, crusader will get 6 points of healing

Unfortunately, the feat's description is short and simple:

...you make a trip attack...

Rules do include basically all mechanics of a trip combat maneuver into the term "trip attack". They are touch attack, possible attack of opportunity, strength check, and possible counter-trip.

If your DM is strict about the rules, you (assuming success on every list item) then:

• hit for damage;
• make a touch attack and a strength check;
• hit for damage again via Improved Trip.

But...

I think, crusader should get 2 points of healing

We may only guess about RAI in most cases, but there are game elements which are just obviously ill- or under-defined. Knock-down isn't the worst case, but considering slight controversy between its description and benefit, considering my gut feeling about maneuvers' mechanic in the game, I'd say feat actually talks (or should talk) about strength check only, when it says "trip attack".

First, it says in it's description, that it is your mighty blow, what knocks foes off their feet. No need of unarmed attack or an attack with some special weapon, based on the description.

Second, based on similar combat maneuver improver like improved grab:

...without provoking an attack of opportunity. No initial touch attack is required...
...A successful hold does not deal any extra damage...

you shouldn't bother with touch attack, attack of opportunity and counter-trip. You just knock your foe off his feet, or he manages to stay on his feet.

You also shouldn't get more "real" attacks. The thing is that regularily with Improved Trip, you get a "real" attack once - the attack, that actually deals damage. I suppose, an intent here is that just knocking your foe off his feet is too little of a benefit, so authors made it, you are still able to do your melee damage.

It is "trip + damage" with Improved Trip, and with Knock-down it should now be "damage + trip", not "damage +trip +damage". For abovementioned improved grab example it is similarily "damage +hold" and not "damage +hold +damage (as part of a hold)".

If you need additional rules basis for the part about not getting free additional attack, Improved Trip says:

...you [...] get a melee attack [...] as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt...

so it may be argued, you need to use an attack for the trip attempt to get that second free attack via Improved Trip. Using Knock-down, you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt, you had used it for a regular attack (with a rider effect).

Final order of your attack will then look like this:

• hit for damage;
• strength check.