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Say I'm playing an Order Of Scribes wizard with the Manifest Mind feature (TCoE, p. 77-78). My wizard has successfully hidden from an enemy. I've already used Manifest Mind to make my spectral mind appear, and it is floating about in the middle of the battlefield with no special effects upon it.

Now, if I cast a spell from my own space, such as Ray of Sickness (for example; any spell requiring an attack roll will do), I would get advantage on the attack roll due to me being hidden.

However, what if I use the limited-use ability of Manifest Mind to cast the spell from the spectral manifestation's space? Does that still count as me being hidden, and thus grant advantage on the attack roll?

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    \$\begingroup\$ This question, Can a hidden character make an attack with the Spiritual Weapon spell and still remain hidden?, seems to be much the same question, but about a different feature. Does it answer your question? \$\endgroup\$ Commented Apr 4, 2022 at 18:46
  • \$\begingroup\$ Welcome to RPG.SE! Take the tour if you haven't already, and check out the help center for more guidance. \$\endgroup\$
    – V2Blast
    Commented Apr 4, 2022 at 19:21
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    \$\begingroup\$ @ThomasMarkov unfortunately it does not. As it addresses a different, but related issue. Namely would I remain hidden - which is useful to know, and I hadn't even considered that aspect. But this question is about whether the hidden advantage even applies, rather than if I remain hidden after the fact. \$\endgroup\$
    – Louis M.
    Commented Apr 5, 2022 at 10:30
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    \$\begingroup\$ However... I am not voting to close this just yet, because I'm curious if the community considers the fact that "you can cast it as if you were in the spectral mind's space, instead of your own" (TCoE p. 78) in the case of the Manifest Mind to make a difference (since Spiritual Weapon implies, but does not explicitly state, such a rule). \$\endgroup\$ Commented Apr 6, 2022 at 14:20
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    \$\begingroup\$ @Gandalfmeansme: I think the questions are related, but the features are differently worded (the mechanics are slightly different) and thus the answer is not necessarily the same. \$\endgroup\$
    – V2Blast
    Commented Apr 7, 2022 at 17:30

1 Answer 1

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Your DM will need to adjudicate.

The argument FOR allowing

Rules-as-written, there is a strong argument for this.

In the Basic Rules, under Unseen Attackers and Targets, it says:

When a creature can't see you, you have advantage on attack rolls against it. If you are hidden--both unseen and unheard--when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses.

And the Manifest Mind feature says:

Whenever you cast a wizard spell on your turn, you can cast it as if you were in the spectral mind’s space, instead of your own, using its senses.

So, if you are attacking, the rules say you should get advantage.

Of course, once you attack, you're no longer hidden.

The argument AGAINST allowing

However, the target has no way of knowing that it was you and not the Manifest Mind that cast the spell. From the target's point of view, the floating thing attacking it wasn't hidden at all.

The rules for Unseen Attackers and Targets says "when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses." Clearly the narrative is that the attacker doesn't see you, sees the attack coming from your space, then knows where you are. If the attack appears to be from the Manifest Mind, it is not much of a stretch to say the target sees where the attack is coming from (or where it appears to be coming from), so no advantage.

You win either way

If the DM rules that you do get advantage, then you get advantage, so that's a win.

On the other hand, if the DM rules you don't get advantage, that's a win, too. That means you remain hidden, and your target does not get to know where you are, at least not because of your attack. For a squishy wizard, staying hidden is an advantage, even if you don't get advantage.

How to adjudicate

Either way it's a good trick. The DM is probably not risking dangerous precedent either way and may have a preference one way or another. A discussion with the player is probably warranted; which way is most fun? Both seem like good tricks, situationally useful, and not dramatically overpowered. As a DM and a player I would lean toward no advantage, because I think it makes the most narrative sense and I think the idea of the wizard remaining hidden is fun.

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