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This is specifically for Pathfinder 1e.

So, I haven't been able to find the exact answer I'm looking for. I'm a Druid with two ranks in Brawler (technically, it's a home brew Brawler called Beastial Scrapper, but for all practical purposes, I'll call it Brawler here).

I've gone down the grapple rabbit hole. I've got Improved Grapple, as well as Greater Grapple. Because of my dip into Brawler, I can use Martial Flexibility, as well as Flurry of Blows.

My question is this, because I have Greater Grapple, and I get to make 2 grapple checks each round, do I get to do a Full Attack Action if I make both of them? Technically, according to the PFSRD, a "Grappled" character can make a FAA, and the PFSRD also doesn't differentiate between Grappled and Grappler, they are both the same condition.

Here's where it gets interesting. Under normal grappling, if you make your check, you can move, attack, or pin. If you have Greater Grapple, you can make two checks to move, attack, or pin. Technically, you could move twice, which in normal rules would be a double move, or pin, and then tie up, or attack twice, which doesn't really exist in normal rules, as you'd just being using your move and standard action to make a FAA. It really feels like making two grapple checks should add up to a FAA.

Is there anything out there that explicitly states that I can't make two grapple checks to use a FAA? And if so, and it's not allowed, would Rapid Grapple allow for it, since that allows you to make a Swift Action to make a grapple check, therefore still giving you a move and standard action (which together make up a FAA)?

Additionally, I have heard that a Monk can make a Flurry of Blows when Grappled as long as they have 1 hand, and since a Brawler is based on a Monk and has a similar Flurry of Blows, would that mean that my character could do the same?

Lastly, when in Wild Shape, would I be able to make attacks with my natural weapons? I become a Tiger, and I have Rake, so I technically get to make my claw attacks each round. But I'm also looking into becoming a Dragon, and Form of the Exotic Dragon II gives me 6 attacks (Bite, 2 Claws, 2 Wings, Tail). Would I really only be able to attack with two of them in a round if I make both checks? I'm grappling with my claws, probably, what about my wings and tail? Are those appendages just hanging out and doing nothing?

I guess I'm just looking for some sort of general consensus from the community. My GM is pretty fair, but the Grapple rules only account for so much, and there's a lot of ambiguity here. And for the record, I'm loving grapple. I've got a 29 CMB (I'm level 16) for grapple, and a Ring of Freedom of Movement, as well as Powerful Shape. Once I get Form of the Exotic Dragon III I'll be able to grapple a T-Rex, and as far as for RPing goes, it just looks really cool, and my GM is all about good RP.

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    \$\begingroup\$ Welcome to RPG.SE! Take the tour if you haven't already, and check out the help center for more guidance. "Pathfinder 3.5." isn't a thing, exactly; I assume you're talking about Pathfinder 1st edition, which is based on D&D 3.5e, so I've edited your post to include the [pathfinder-1e] tag. Feel free to edit if this is incorrect. \$\endgroup\$
    – V2Blast
    Apr 6 at 21:36
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    \$\begingroup\$ This isn't really one question. These all seem like separate questions, but with the same leading context. \$\endgroup\$
    – YogoZuno
    Apr 6 at 21:39
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    \$\begingroup\$ That said, you should generally ask one question per post (or one closely related set of questions). It looks like you have multiple questions in this post, as YogoZuno's comment notes; the answer to each of your questions doesn't necessarily seem to depend on the answer to any of the other questions in the post. As such, you should probably edit out your additional/secondary questions, and ask them in separate posts instead. \$\endgroup\$
    – V2Blast
    Apr 6 at 21:40
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    \$\begingroup\$ Ther is no "Pathfinder 3.5". Do you mean Pathfinder, 1st edition or do you mean it's predecessor D&D 3.5? \$\endgroup\$
    – Trish
    Apr 6 at 22:17
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    \$\begingroup\$ Trish's question is important because, while most of the rules are compatible and a lot of D&D 3.5 content can be approved by various groups in Pathfinder (or vice versa), Grappling is one of the rulesets that changed significantly between the two systems iirc \$\endgroup\$
    – Ifusaso
    Apr 6 at 23:43

1 Answer 1

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Answering the action-based question, assuming you mean Pathfinder rules with 3.5e content:

My question is this, because I have Greater Grapple, and I get to make 2 grapple checks each round, do I get to do a Full Attack Action if I make both of them? [...] Technically, you could move twice, which in normal rules would be a double move, or pin, and then tie up, or attack twice, which doesn't really exist in normal rules, as you'd just being using your move and standard action to make a FAA.

No, you can't. First, the ability to move/damage/pin/tie someone as part of the grapple check is not actually granting you an action to use as you see fit. The "move" granted to you is to move up to half of your speed: you can't use the action to stand up, or to draw your weapon, or to take any other action that can be taken using a normal move action. Similarly, the other options do not grant you a generic standard action (even if you used a standard action to make the grapple check). This means that you can't, for instance, use Vital Strike to increase the damage dealt during the damage action as, while you are inflicting damage equivalent to a single attack, you never took the attack action.

It really feels like making two grapple checks should add up to a FAA. [...] Is there anything out there that explicitly states that I can't make two grapple checks to use a FAA?

Second, in many cases the rules don't say what you can't do, they say what you can do. There's a rule saying "you can take a move action in place of a standard action," but there's no rule saying "you can't take a standard action in place a move action." You simply can't do that because there's no rule saying you can. Similarly, there's no rule saying "you can't combine a move action and a standard action into a full-round action": even if this did give you a normal move and standard action, you would not be able to recombine that into a full-round action because there's no rule that allows it. If you have a way to generate a move action (such as the oft-abused Quick Runner's Shirt), you could use that move action in addition to a full-round action.

And if so, and it's not allowed, would Rapid Grapple allow for it, since that allows you to make a Swift Action to make a grapple check, therefore still giving you a move and standard action (which together make up a FAA)?

No, because Rapid Grapple says "whenever you use Greater Grapple to successfully maintain a grapple as a move action, you can then spend a swift action [...]." If this let you make a swift action instead of a move action it would permit it, but by the time Rapid Grapple is granting you the swift action, you've already spent a move action and thus cannot take a full-round action.

Additionally, I have heard that a Monk can make a Flurry of Blows when Grappled as long as they have 1 hand.

You can make a flurry of blows while grappled. You cannot make a flurry of blows while grappling. This is a restriction due to the actions required to initiate/maintain a grapple, not due to the grappled condition in itself.

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  • \$\begingroup\$ As an addendum: yes, you get every natural attack of the form you take. Neither Wild Shape nor Beast Shape I (which it references) specify how natural attacks work, so you refer to the general transmutation (polymorph) rules: "Polymorph: A polymorph spell transforms your physical body to take on the shape of another creature. [...] In addition to these benefits, you gain any of the natural attacks of the base creature, including proficiency in those attacks. [...]" \$\endgroup\$
    – Shivers
    Apr 7 at 1:32
  • \$\begingroup\$ It seems like they've made it pretty much impossible to get a FAA while grappling. This makes sense in my mind a bit. I can imagine how powerful it would be to grapple, and then string together FAAs and just decimate enemies. In a way, this also seems like it helps keep the Rake special attack more special. With Greater Grapple, as a tiger with Rake, I'd technically get 4 attacks. So this makes it valuable. Thanks for the clarification! \$\endgroup\$
    – Mynock1108
    Apr 7 at 8:01
  • \$\begingroup\$ I did want a little extra clarification, if you don't mind, Shivers. You mention that I get every natural attack in the form I take. But you said I can't take a FAA when grappling. So would I only get one attack per grapple check? Would I get more? Sorry, I just wanted to make sure I understood you clearly on that part. This is a big feature of my grappling, as either a tiger or a dragon. It almost seems better to grapple as a tiger because they have the rake ability, whereas the dragon doesn't. So with Grapple I'd get 4 total attacks, but as a dragon only 2. Is that correct? \$\endgroup\$
    – Mynock1108
    Apr 7 at 8:08
  • \$\begingroup\$ Of note: If you're grappling a creature, instead of maintaining the grapple you can release it and full attack. If your attacks have the grab ability, you'll likely be able to start the grapple again using that ability. This of course doesn't interface with greater grapple and rapid grappler because you're never maintaining the grapple, just starting it over. \$\endgroup\$
    – Cellion
    Apr 7 at 14:24
  • \$\begingroup\$ @Mynock1108 - That was separate: you will get every natural attack of the form you take, but the dragon can still only use one to deal damage when it maintains (unless the natural attack specifies otherwise). Rake isn't inherently a natural attack; it's an ability that grants natural attacks. Abilities like this are generally specified in the higher tiers of each spell; rake is granted starting from Beast Shape III, which Wild Shape emulates starting at level 8 (which you're past). Note that Beast Shape II starts granting pounce, which synergizes very well with rake attacks. \$\endgroup\$
    – Shivers
    Apr 7 at 17:34

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