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Iron maiden v1

Not a lot to say, per se, up front, since the goal is for the class to read like you just came across it in Chapter 5 of Tome of Battle. See the preamble to v1 if you are unfamiliar with the Lady’s Gambit feat, which the class relies on quite a bit, or with Ronove, whose legend the class references (though honestly it isn’t hugely important to be familiar with her).

I will put an extra question in here: would the class be improved if it had a sidebar defining “maneuver-like abilities” to explain better how as blood from a stone, master of men all, and not while I draw breath work? Said sidebar would probably note that blade storm, blood wind ricochet, pouncing strike, rending claws, and returning attacks are also maneuver-like (of Iron Heart or Tiger Claw as appropriate), making minor changes to how those function. The fact that Tome of Battle didn’t do this gives me pause, as does the fact that I don’t want precisely the functionality that Tome of Battle had.

Changelog

  • v1→v2
    • Added improved lady’s gambit to cover what lady’s resolve messed up last time. Much simpler too.
    • Improved stone power and greater stone power were combined (under improved stone power), and wording was tightened.
    • Lady’s resolve is entirely revamped to cover a corner case I hadn’t realized last time.
    • Added sharpened awareness, master of men all, and as blood from a stone.
    • Not while I draw breath got a line-of-effect and perception requirement, and now counts as a Devoted Spirit counter for effects that care.
    • Some minor tightening of the flavor text following the class in a few places.
    • Some new entries in the Lore section.
    • Unchanged:
      • Requirements. While BAB +6 is redundant with Lady’s Gambit and furious counterstrike is redundant with steely resolve 10 in official content, if a campaign uses one bit of homebrew (e.g. this), it might use another, so I cannot guarantee there is no way to get Lady’s Gambit at lower BAB or to get steely resolve 10 without furious counterstrike.
      • Initiator level wording. Ultimately, this wording is what is used in Tome of Battle, and I have never once seen it misunderstood. Changing it to something inconsistent with Tome of Battle is unlikely to reduce confusion (since as far as I know, this wording has never been confused), and just might cause someone to wonder if some distinction is being made with the different wording (i.e. causing confusion).

Google Docs version (perma-link to the version as of this writing) (again, print layout needed to see class table)

Iron Maiden

“I cannot die. I cannot tire. Fools try what the wise do not. A title I accept. Gladly.”
—Rook, iron maiden

In an attempt to recreate the techniques of Ronove, the Iron Maiden, the warriors now known by her epithet have developed something wholly new, quite unlike that prototypical monk. Taking her philosophy of denial in an unexpected direction, iron maidens weaponize their own mortality.

Becoming an Iron Maiden

Iron maidens always train as crusaders, usually exclusively. While they follow a philosophy inspired by the former monk and current vestige Ronove, few bother becoming monks or binders—though it’s not unheard of.

Despite the class’s name, iron maidens are in no way required to be female, and derogatory comments on the subject are among the fastest ways to earn their ire.

Entry Requirements

Base Attack Bonus: +6.
Feats: Lady’s Gambit,¹ Stone Power.²
Special: Furious counterstrike and steely resolve 10 class features.

  1. Dragon vol. 317, pg. 82
  2. Tome of Battle, pg. 32

Class Features

The iron maiden class focuses on the steely resolve delayed damage pool to a degree that goes well beyond that of a typical crusader. This focus does come at the cost of some of their divine and sublime abilities.

Table: The Iron Maiden; Hit Die d12

Level Base
Attack
Bonus
Fort
Save
Ref
Save
Will
Save
Man.
Known
Steely
Resolve
Special
1st +1 +2 +0 +2 +1/−1 +5 Improved lady’s gambit, improved stone power, lady’s resolve
2nd +2 +3 +0 +3 0 +10 Hell hath no fury like, sharpened awareness
3rd +3 +3 +1 +3 +1/−1 +15 Master of men all
4th +4 +4 +1 +4 0 +20 As blood from a stone
5th +5 +4 +1 +4 +1/–1 +30 Not while I draw breath

Class Skills (4 + Int modifier per level): Balance, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Heal, Intimidate, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (history), Knowledge (local), Knowledge (religion), Listen, Martial Lore, Profession, Ride, Sense Motive, Spot, Swim, Tumble.

Maneuvers: At 1st, 3rd, and 5th level, you can choose a new Devoted Spirit, Iron Heart, or Stone Dragon maneuver in place of a maneuver (of any discipline) you already know. In effect, you lose the old maneuver in exchange for the new one. You can choose a new maneuver of any level you like, as long as you observe your restriction on the highest-level maneuvers you know; you need not replace the old maneuver with another maneuver of the same level. You must meet a maneuver’s prerequisite to learn it. You add your full iron maiden class level to your initiator level to determine your total initiator level and your highest-level maneuvers known.

Improved Lady’s Gambit (Ex): The maximum sacrifice you can make using Lady’s Gambit doubles, to twice your character level.

Improved Stone Power (Ex): You use Stone Power on your turn before attacking, regardless of how you will attack, instead of using it when attacking in particular ways. Furthermore, the penalty you take when using Stone Power is not limited to −5, and the temporary hit points are not limited to 10. The chosen penalty still cannot exceed your base attack bonus.

Lady’s Resolve (Ex): Damage that enters your steely resolve delayed damage pool during your turn does not leave the pool and damage you at the end of that turn, but instead remains in the pool until the end of your next turn.

Steely Resolve (Ex): The size of your steely resolve delayed damage pool increases each level. At each level except 5th, this increase is by +5 points; the increase for 5th level is by +10 points. Thus the total maximum increase at 5th level is +30 points.

Hell Hath No Fury Like (Ex): At 2nd level, your furious counterstrike loses its +6 maximum on the size of the attack and damage bonus it grants.

Sharpened Awareness (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, you have blindsense with a range in feet equal to your current furious counterstrike bonus multiplied by 5. If the current value of your steely resolve is 40 or more, you also have blindsight out to the furthest extent of your threatened area (or out to the range of the blindsense, if your threatened area is somehow larger). The blindsight includes squares you do not threaten, but which are closer to you than squares you do threaten, for example if you use a reach weapon.

Master of Men All (Ex): At 3rd level, you can expend an available maneuver (without its normal effect) and attack as a standard action. If you successfully deal damage with this attack, note the current value of your furious counterstrike. For the next round, the target takes the noted value as a penalty on all attack rolls, damage rolls, and saving throw DCs. None of these penalties apply to attacks against you, damage you take, or saves you attempt, however. Treat this ability as an Iron Heart strike, for example for an Iron Heart weapon.

As Blood from a Stone (Ex): Starting at 4th level, you can expend an available maneuver (without its normal effect) as a swift action to gain spell resistance equal to 10 + your character level + twice your furious counterstrike bonus for 1 round. Treat this ability as a Stone Dragon boost, for example for a Stone Dragon weapon.

Not While I Draw Breath (Ex): At 5th level, you can exceed the limits of your mortal frame to lend your reality-defying durability to your comrades. As an immediate action when an ally within 30 feet takes damage, you can expend an available maneuver (without its normal effect) to take half of that damage (rounded down) instead of that ally. You must have line of effect to the ally, and must be able to perceive that they are being damaged. All of the damage you take goes into your steely resolve delayed damage pool, even if that would exceed the pool’s usual limit. If the source of the damage also inflicted an additional effect (such as stunning or a similar condition), you suffer the effect instead of your ally, making any relevant saves and checks as if the effect had targeted you, even if it would be physically impossible to do so. Treat this ability as a Devoted Spirit counter.

Playing an Iron Maiden

You choose to push yourself harder than almost any foe you face—to push yourself to the very limits of your lifeforce. And you do so primarily for the challenge of it, the sheer appreciation that it works—there is no deity forcing you to do this, no devil promising profane rewards. It is for its own sake. That takes a very particular kind of person.

Many see iron maidens as masochistic, but this isn’t necessarily the case. The Lady’s Gambit does not cause pain; it is a sacrifice more fundamental than firing nerves. Moreover, iron maidens don’t just specialize in sacrifice—they also specialize in being able to endure their sacrifices. That lends itself to being able to endure a whole lot else, besides.

Combat

You use steely resolve and Stone Power to survive your use of Lady’s Gambit and use Lady’s Gambit and furious counterstrike to overcome the attack penalties you take using Stone Power. While the numbers appear absolutely in your favor on paper, keep in mind that your foes will try to push you off-balance.

Advancement

Iron maiden techniques are not secret, but they are obscure. The first iron maidens were academics, oddly enough, inspired by a paper to begin training as crusaders and then iron maidens. Since then, a few have founded dojos and the like, so the information is out there. But the path is new and as yet little known.

All iron maidens are crusaders, but rather than being dedicated to a cause or deity, many are simply inspired by the way of the iron maidens, itself, and train as crusaders in order to become one. Whether that describes you or not, most likely you were a single-classed crusader before becoming an iron maiden, and most likely you’ll go right back to that class after. But you should consider at least a level or two of barbarian, since rage will make you that much tougher in combat. Another option might be binder—Ronove is a vestige after all—in which case you will probably want to pursue the knight of the sacred seal prestige class as well.³ If you’d rather emulate Ronove than make a pact with her, the fist of the forest prestige class offers monk-like abilities that allow you to forsake the trappings of the civilized world to become even tougher.⁴

Feats that allow you to punish those who try to throw off your balance, such as Karmic Strike⁵ or Robilar’s Gambit,⁶ are strong choices. On the other hand, the best defense may well be a strong offense—consider Power Attack and similar feats that allow you to kill foes before they can turn your sacrifices against you. If you choose to multiclass with barbarian, Extra Rage and Instantaneous Rage are excellent feats for you.⁵ Fist of the forest and knight of the sacred seal also have their own requirements to keep in mind if you have an interest in those classes.

  1. Tome of Magic, pg. 9, 54
  2. Complete Champion, pg. 80
  3. Complete Warrior, pg. 98, 102
  4. Player’s Handbook II, pg. 82

Resources

You might belong to an iron maiden dojo, but these are often small affairs, with limited resources. Lodging is about the most you can usually hope for from these. With the emphasis that iron maidens place on endurance, most tend towards the self-sufficient.

Iron Maidens in the world

“Someone trying to figure out something old made so many mistakes that by sheer dumb luck they invented something new. It’s not hard to see why some might call that providence.”
—Tamsin Cutterbuck, Theurgian archaeologist

Nothing about being an iron maiden has much influence on what an iron maiden does with their skills. For some, it’s a largely-theoretical practice and exercise regimen that just happens to be extremely demanding. For others, it’s just an approach to combat that works. And for a few, it is a reflection of their history or philosophy: that power comes at a cost, and the higher the prices you can pay, the more power you can have.

So an iron maiden might be anywhere, doing anything. For an amusing, unusual encounter, consider an iron maiden scholar, studying the techniques to put theory to the test more than for any real ends. For a more serious, even tragic, encounter, an iron maiden may have pursued the route out of a belief that sacrifices must be made—and a dedication to making all such necessary sacrifices themselves, to spare others that suffering.

Organization

Iron maiden dojos are fairly casual, with those interested coming and going at will. Iron maidens often leave to train by themselves and return months later much improved—or just as they were. No one’s progress or lack thereof is considered to be anyone else’s concern. The ethos among iron maidens tends to be that it is a path for those who are invigorated by its challenges, and that demands a price for every step that each practitioner has to decide to pay themselves.

Some iron maidens can also be found among the knightly orders of certain deities, particularly those of sacrifice like Dol Arrah or Ilmater. While being an iron maiden does not make any requirements of one’s faith, it certainly is very compatible with such deities, and iron maidens fit in very well among their crusaders and paladins.

NPC Reactions

Iron maidens are little-known, and little-considered by most. Those who get to know how their arts function might find it somewhat dark or off-putting, but ultimately the Lady’s Gambit is a subtle thing that’s unlikely to offend anyone. Most simply appreciate the lengths to which an iron maiden goes to be the greatest ally or foe they can be.

Generally speaking, iron maidens have none of the problems with established religions that binders do. The few inquisitors who know of the connection tend to be those who know all the details, and therefore also know the iron maidens have no contact with Ronove as a vestige. The overwhelming majority, of course, know nothing about binding, Ronove, or the origins of the martial discipline, and just regard iron maidens as an unusual form of crusader.

The Theurgian Society is unusually aware of iron maidens, considering it was a Theurgian Society journal in which the discipline was first hypothesized. Since it has become clear that the discipline bears little actual resemblance to anything of Ronove’s, however, they have little continued interest in the iron maidens.

Iron Maiden Lore

Characters with ranks in Martial Lore can research iron maidens to learn more about them. When a character makes a skill check, read or paraphrase the following, including the information from lower DCs.

DC 10: These crusaders can take an incredible amount of punishment.
DC 15: Iron maidens actually get more dangerous the closer they are to death.
DC 20: Iron maidens are masters of their own lifeforce, which they can and will put into their attacks. They can push themselves to the edge of death and then live there.
DC 25: The path of iron maidens is inspired by an ancient monk who was recently rediscovered. (Those familiar with Ronove’s legend can connect her to this.)
DC 27: The story that inspired the techniques of iron maidens was mistranslated, and in reality their approach is nothing like that monk’s and is new.
DC 30: Characters who achieve this level of success can learn important details about a specific notable iron maiden, the areas where she operates, and the kinds of activities she undertakes.

A character with the Gather Information skill can attempt a DC 25 check to locate an iron maiden, provided one is in the region.

Iron Maidens in the game

Any game that includes binders and crusaders can easily include iron maidens, since they’re specialty crusaders inspired by a vestige’s history. Even without binders in the game, it’s easy enough to include the historical Ronove without bringing in the vestige, and it won’t change things much for iron maidens.

And introducing an iron maiden character can be quite easy, simply because they really can be just about anyone. They might be a traditional sort of crusader on a grand quest, but often their crusade is more personal, about their quest to push themselves harder. Perhaps the most natural role for an iron maiden, then, is as an itinerant swordswoman (or what have you), someone who travels in the search of foes, glory, and adventure. In short, though an iron maiden is a crusader, they may play a role in the story more like that of a warblade.

The player of an iron maiden is probably looking to push the envelope, at least in combat, by sacrificing their hit points and relying on steely resolve and Stone Power, and possibly Devoted Spirit maneuvers, to stay alive doing it. The character could be reckless and daring, or dour and brooding, and both would be quite fitting to what an iron maiden is. Either way, challenges that will push the character to the edge—and reward them for going there—are likely to appeal.

Adaptation

As mentioned, iron maidens can easily be disconnected from binding, since Ronove’s influence over the class is minimal and historical—most iron maidens don’t even know that history. You could go a step further and make the iron maidens the special crusaders of a particular deity or faith—Dol Arrah is a good choice in Eberron, and Ilmater is a good choice in the Forgotten Realms. Evil deities can also get in on iron maidens, though: the Mockery might thrill at profaning the notion of sacrifice, and Hextor has always appreciated that power comes at a cost.

Sample Encounter

Iron maidens love a challenge, and often wander in search of more. Good iron maidens are more than willing to sacrifice for the sake of others, while evil iron maidens will pay any price for power.

EL 10: The iron maiden Rook has some extremely strong ideas on what it means to be good. She has even left her deity, who she felt was insufficiently willing to make personal sacrifices for the greater good.

Rook, siege engine and deserter; CR 10

Female (“as a ship”) warforged crusader 6/iron maiden 4
CG Medium construct (living construct)
Init +0; Senses Listen −1, Spot −1
Languages Common, Abyssal, Draconic, Infernal, Terran, Undercommon


AC 21, touch 10, flat-footed 21 (+8 armor, +3 shield)
hp 94 (10 HD)
Fort +12, Ref +3, Will +8; zealous surge


Speed 20 ft. (4 squares), base speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 vicious greataxe +14 (1d12+4+2d6; 1d6 self-damage per attack)
Base Atk +10; Grp +13
Atk Options furious counterstrike, Lady’s Gambit, smite 1/day, steely resolve 30, Stone Power
Special Actions as blood from a stone, master of men all


Maneuvers and Stances Known (IL 10th):

Stances—iron guard’s glare (1st), martial spirit (1st)

Strikes—crusader’s strike (1st), divine surge† (4th), douse the flames (1st), elder mountain hammer† (5th), foehammer (2nd), mountain hammer† (2nd), revitalizing strike† (3rd), white raven tactics† (3rd)

Disciplines: Devoted Spirit, Stone Dragon, White Raven

† Readied maneuver


Abilities Str 16, Dex 10, Con 16, Int 12, Wis 8, Cha 12
SQ living construct traits, DR 2/adamantine, immunity to critical hits and sneak attacks, sharpened awareness
Feats Adamantine Body, Stone Power, Lady’s Gambit, Improved Fortification
Skills Diplomacy +14, Intimidate +14, Knowledge (history) +9, Knowledge (religion) +14, Knowledge (the planes) +9
Possessions +1 vicious greataxe, +1 animated heavy shield

With thanks to a fellow player, whose character Rook inspired this class, and provided the class quote as well as some of the basis for the example character. (The actual Rook does not have levels in this prestige class—yet?)

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  • \$\begingroup\$ The class totally needs more Eddie Flavor. \$\endgroup\$
    – Trish
    Apr 27 at 9:34
  • \$\begingroup\$ @Trish ...unless we’re talking about Meat Loaf’s character from The Rocky Horror Picture Show, I’m not getting the reference. And if we are, I’m still not getting it because I don’t really see that character as an iron maiden :P \$\endgroup\$
    – KRyan
    Apr 27 at 12:43
  • \$\begingroup\$ Eddie (the Head) is Iron Maiden's mascot. \$\endgroup\$
    – Trish
    Apr 27 at 12:43
  • \$\begingroup\$ @Trish Ahhh! Yes, I thought of the band as soon as I came back to this, but I did not know that. I just listen to their music. \$\endgroup\$
    – KRyan
    Apr 27 at 13:05

1 Answer 1

2
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My answer from v1 updated for v2

Addressing the changes themselves: I approve keeping the initator level wording the same as in ToB. Consistency is best in this case.


I won't be addressing fluff, since that's entirely subjective. Formatting and wording are also an editorial matter, which I will also skip apart from where it relates to crunch.

First, context for my design sensibilities: I like high-power mechanics and games, I like giving martials nice things and I favor a holistic approach (more on that later). An example of these tenets, applied to a class very similar to this one, can be found here.

So let's go through the mechanics one by one.

  1. Base stats: a) d12 over the Crusader's d10: perfectly reasonable given the point of this class. b) high Will save over the Crusader: no particular comments, but I am curious what it's trying to address?
  2. Weird maneuver progression. I am assuming this is the cost of the increased damage pool.
  3. Improved Lady's Gambit: The only thing this does is grant bigger numbers, which I'm not a big fan of. I like class features that qualitatively change the way the game can be played.
  4. Improved stone power: I like the idea. It grants a unique new ability to the class. That's what we wanna see.
  5. Lady's resolve: This ability seems entirely superfluous. Steely resolve in ToB already stipulates, and I quote: "At the end of your next turn, you take damage equal to the total stored in your delayed damage pool, which then resets to 0."
  6. Steely resolve: I understand playing with this is the main goal of the class, but the numbers put it at like 5x the base progression. I'm not sure I agree with such a large disparity. Do you consider the base class progression too slow? I mentioned a holistic approach above and this is what I mean - I would solve this by modifying the base class or addressing damage numbers globally.
  7. Hell Hath No Fury Like: A necessary stipulation given the increased pool size. Which makes me question its existence as a separate ability. Not to mention mildly dysfunctional, coming 1 level after the 1st pool increase.
  8. Sharpened Awareness: You are mixing conditions/triggers. Choose either steely resolve or furious counterstrike and key this ability off that alone. So it would be +8 or more for blindsight.
  9. Master of Men All: The save penalty makes this a powerful effect. For reference, you get this earliest at L9, when casters get access to L5 spells like cloudkill and force wall. Also, are enemies AWARE of the effect of Master of Men All? Check out how Devoted Spirit's Defensive rebuke works - it has a similar mechanic. It explicitly says enemies are aware of the consequences of that maneuver. I'm not sure of the omission was intentional, but I would absolutely include that clause. (BTW, care to explain the name of this ability? It sounds like word jumble to me.)
  10. As Blood from a Stone: Acquired at L10 earliest. TBH I would perhaps swap the previous ability and this one.
  11. Not While I Draw Breath: Presumably the capstone. I like the design of these last 3 abilities, as a sort of unique mini-discipline for this specific class.
    The damage share is nothing new, mechanic wise, but the condition redirect is certainly enough to qualify it as a capstone (not to mention its amusingly Ex status). It does have numerous issues however, stemming from 2 places: a) Keep in mind that "Dead" is also an explicitly defined condition (Dying too). What happens when you attempt to redirect those? Things get extremely hairy extremely fast. b) I'm not a fan of the "All of the damage you take goes into your steely resolve delayed damage pool, even if that would exceed the pool’s usual limit." What happens to that damage the next round? Do you take all of it, including that which is excess over the damage pool, or just your normal pool size? Does it actually override the damage pool cap? (Some of these you might say, have reasonable interpretations, but I'm sure you're well aware how the game is played and this ability is rife for RAI vs RAW debates. Perhaps be a bit more explicit.) Also, I assume the intent is for redirected effects to encounter your own protections - such as redirecting a spell effect triggering your spell resistance. Correct me if this is not the case.

Much improved over v1, but some squirrely issues do still remain.

The good

Compelling features: I know of no other thing that can improve Steely resolve apart from more crusader levels. Stone power is a quintessential Crusader combo and targeting that is a good idea for a class.
Interesting combo: Lady's Gambit is a good find and a perfect fit for a crusader.
Distinct playstyle: The class certainly evokes a very unique combat style.
Powerful: I like the trio of abilities that form a sort of mini-discipline. Effective against casters.

The bad

The class still seems too focused on improving numbers. Which is quite in line with 3.5e, but is IMO bad design (Weapon focus is a bad feat and I will die on that hill).

The ugly

Lady's resolve seems completely useless.
Things can get awfully murky with Not While I Draw Breath's condition redirect and non-instantaneous conditions. Lawyer up!

Note: I made my own version of this class, that I consider less wonky, because I liked the base idea. But since no one is likely to ever make use of it, I'm not spending time formatting it pretty. Though if people show interest I could update this answer.

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  • \$\begingroup\$ Thank your for the feedback! Going down the list... Lady’s resolve is necessary because otherwise when you take damage during your turn (e.g. using Lady’s Gambit), you take the damage immediately after that same turn. The idea is to let you keep it in steely resolve (and keep the furious counterstrike bonus) through to the end of the next turn. As for steely resolve, modifying the base class is not in scope for this particular project, but yes, the crusader’s progression is much too slow for it to matter very much to the way a crusader actually plays beyond the earliest levels. (1/?) \$\endgroup\$
    – KRyan
    Apr 27 at 1:58
  • 1
    \$\begingroup\$ Hell hath no fury like comes online when it does because that is the first level at which it is possible to exceed the default limit (crusader 16/iron maiden 1 has steely resolve 30; leveling to iron maiden 2nd gives 35). I suppose crusader 20/iron maiden 1 misses out, but I don’t care about epic. Master of men all is a reference to the Rudyard Kipling poem “Cold Iron,” which has “but iron—cold iron—is master of men all” as a refrain. Agreed on the need for the enemy awareness line. I’ll consider swapping it with as blood from a stone. (2/3) \$\endgroup\$
    – KRyan
    Apr 27 at 2:04
  • \$\begingroup\$ As for not while I draw breath, yes, “condition” is a mess—but this is the same book that has iron heart surge in it. Ultimately, anyone playing with this has to have already come to some kind of gentlefolk’s agreement on the subject, and that’s fine. Overcomplicating the rules text here isn’t likely to help matters. As for breaking the steely resolve cap, yes, you keep it, yes, you take at the end of your next turn—I’m not really sure why that wouldn’t be the case? And yes, you get a potentially-gigantic furious counterstrike. That’s kinda the “crowning moment of awesome” I hope for. (3/3) \$\endgroup\$
    – KRyan
    Apr 27 at 2:05
  • \$\begingroup\$ Separately, any opinions on the idea of defining “maneuver-like abilities” for things like the trio here and some of the Tome of Battle prestige class abilities? (Also, final thought, yes, Weapon Focus is a terrible feat—personally, I wrote and use a better one.) \$\endgroup\$
    – KRyan
    Apr 27 at 2:10
  • 1
    \$\begingroup\$ It does say “end of next turn,” you’re right. OK, so that is unnecessary. As for steely resolve, I don’t think it’s “over” compensating in the sense that I think steely resolve 30 in 5 levels is reasonable; it’s only the comparison between crusader and iron maiden that results in the 300% increase because crusader is too low. If I had control, I’d double the rate of crusader, and leave iron maiden as-is—so it’s a 100% increase instead. A prestige class that has the main feature of doubling the rate of a base class’s secondary feature seems reasonable to me. \$\endgroup\$
    – KRyan
    Apr 27 at 12:38

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