4
\$\begingroup\$

While exploring the possibility of combining the Two-Hand or Fatal Aim traits with the Thaumaturge's Implement's Empowerment feature, I came across several assertions that one-handed weapons become two-handed while wielded in two hands. This piqued my interest, because it would change my understanding of several feats and items: for example, I'd be able to use Brutish Shove with a dagger as long as I wield it in two hands. As I looked into this more, I even found one such assertion from a designer:

Handedness in PF2 is determined by the number of hands being used to wield the weapon. So if you're using a jezail in two hands, it's a two-handed weapon and you can't use any options that require you to be using a firearm one-handed until you're back to wielding it in one hand. If you use a dagger in two hands, it's a two-handed weapon for the purposes of feats and abilities that require a two-handed weapon, as laid out on pages 279-280 of the CRB. When determining the handedness of a weapon, the two questions are just "What's the minimum number of hands required to wield this" and "How many hands am I currently using to wield it?"

However, I've read pages 279-280, which are about Weapon Statistics, and I don't see how they support those assertions. The relevant section is about the Hands statistic and states:

Some weapons require one hand to wield, and others require two. A few items, such as a longbow, list 1+ for its Hands entry. You can hold a weapon with a 1+ entry in one hand, but the process of shooting it requires using a second to retrieve, nock, and loose an arrow. This means you can do things with your free hand while holding the bow without changing your grip, but the other hand must be free when you shoot. To properly wield a 1+ weapon, you must hold it in one hand and also have a hand free.

Weapons requiring two hands typically deal more damage. Some one-handed weapons have the two-hand trait, causing them to deal a different size of weapon damage die when used in two hands. In addition, some abilities require you to wield a weapon in two hands. You meet this requirement while holding the weapon in two hands, even if it doesn’t require two hands or have the two-hand trait.

Much to my disappointment, this section doesn't explicitly define one-handed weapons, but the first two sentences strongly imply that weapons which list 1 for their Hand entry require one hand to wield. Best I can tell, this is the closest thing we get to a definition of one-handed weapons. If so, this is an unchanging statistic of the weapon: even when I wield a dagger in two hands, it still only requires one hand to wield, hence it's still a one-handed weapon.
The second paragraph talks about using a one-handed weapon in two hands with the Two-Hand trait, and also talks about the requirement of certain abilities (like Brutal Finish, not the aforementioned Brutish Shove), but in neither case does it imply that one-handed weapons become two-handed.

But even so, I don't want to just dismiss a designer's comment, so do one-handed weapons become two-handed when wielded in two hands? If so, what am I missing or misunderstanding?

\$\endgroup\$
1
  • 1
    \$\begingroup\$ I think the first bolded phrase could be read as either "Some weapons require [at least] one hand to wield" or as "Some weapons require [exactly] one hand to wield". It looks like you can rule out the second reading because then the paragraph about using a one-handed weapon with two hands wouldn't make any sense. \$\endgroup\$
    – joelw
    Nov 3, 2022 at 13:53

1 Answer 1

7
\$\begingroup\$

The rules work as the designer says

Key is the following section (that you cite above, too):

In addition, some abilities require you to wield a weapon in two hands. You meet this requirement while holding the weapon in two hands, even if it doesn’t require two hands or have the two-hand trait.

This section means that you can hold any weapon in two hands, even if it is a 1 hand1 weapon that does not require two hands, and even if it does not have the two-hand trait that some 1 hand weapons have and that explicitly states you can wield the weapon in two hands. (All that trait does is let you deal more damage, if you use two hands).

So you can wield any 1 hand weapon in two hands, and if you do so, it qualifies for using abilities that require you to wield a weapon in two hands. That is exactly what the designer says when they say "If you use a dagger in two hands, it's a two-handed weapon for the purposes of feats and abilities that require a two-handed weapon".

Clearly the size of the dagger does not change at any point. Its hands: 1 statistic does not change at any point. It still is a one-handed weapon, that requires only one hand to use, but you can use it with two hands, and then it counts as a two-handed weapon for the purpose of using the feat, even though it technically isn't.

What may be throwing you off is the section "So if you're using a jezail2 in two hands, it's a two-handed weapon and you can't use any options that require you to be using a firearm one-handed until you're back to wielding it in one hand." I think it says the same thing: how many hands you use to wield the weapon counts for other game elements, no matter if the weapon itself is listed as a 1 hand weapon, or a 2 hand weapon. I don't think they mean it literally turns into a 2 hand weapon, that now requires two hands to use.


1 I am using "1 hand" and "2 hand" to match the rules that have a hands statistic that can be either 1 or 2 or 1+, to say a weapon is "one-handed" or "two-handed" or can be held in one hand but needs two hands to attack with.

1 A firearm that is listed as 1 hand weapon

\$\endgroup\$
5
  • 4
    \$\begingroup\$ Important context: changing your grip from 1-hand to 2-handed requires an action. Going from 2-handed to 1-handed doesn't. So there's a non-trivial cost to taking those 2-handed abilities, even if you can use them with 1-handed weapons. \$\endgroup\$
    – ESCE
    Nov 3, 2022 at 16:16
  • 2
    \$\begingroup\$ @ESCE thank you, enriching comment. I honestly wonder how to wield a dagger with 2 hands, a dagger hilt is so short, I don't really see how you could use it 2-handed. There is a reason that bastard swords had longer hilts than normal longswords. But that has nothing to do with these rules, probably for simplicity. \$\endgroup\$ Nov 3, 2022 at 16:19
  • 1
    \$\begingroup\$ Hm, but can you use a weapon in three hands if your opponents have some effect that interacts with 1-handed or 2-handed weapons... \$\endgroup\$
    – Phoenices
    Nov 3, 2022 at 19:05
  • 1
    \$\begingroup\$ As for how to use a dagger two-handed, it could be narratively just using the second hand to support your dagger actions... engaging directly with the target. For things that are "do more damage with a 2 handed weapon Strike", it could be grabbing the enemy to drag them into the dagger (and not being able to hold on because you're not Grappling). For something like Brutish Shove, it's easier just to say you're using both hands to shove them. Alternatively, you could be tossing the dagger back and forth and just generally engaging both hands with it \$\endgroup\$
    – Ifusaso
    Nov 3, 2022 at 23:01
  • \$\begingroup\$ @GroodytheHobgoblin one hand holding the dagger as normal, the other pushing the base of the hilt to add extra force to the stab? \$\endgroup\$
    – Adeptus
    Apr 28, 2023 at 1:19

You must log in to answer this question.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .