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Long Jump says:

You Stride, then attempt a DC 15 Athletics check to make a long jump in the direction you were Striding...The GM might increase or decrease this DC depending on the situation.

... Success:You Leap up to a distance equal to your check result rounded down to the nearest 5 feet...

Long Jump on its own seems pretty clear. The DC does not change, and the result depends on the roll result. However, other feats' descriptions conflict with this reading.

Cloud Jump says:

Triple the distance you Long Jump (so you could jump 60 feet on a successful DC 20 check).

This line conflicts with Long Jump, as it seems to assume that the DC changes depending on the distance of the jump, or that the jump distance depends on the DC, rather than the roll result.

This ambiguity then creates even more confusion because of feats like Sudden Leap:

When attempting a High Jump or Long Jump during a Sudden Leap, determine the DC using the Long Jump DCs

We are now unclear whether the DCs determine jump distance or not, but we're told to substitute the DCs from one ability to another. Sudden Leap could therefore mean any of several different things:

  • "Reduce the High Jump DC from 30 to 15, and leap a distance equal to the roll result"
  • "Reduce the High Jump DC from 30 to 15, but do not change the distance of your High Jump"
  • "Set the High Jump DC based on the desired jump distance, and leap a distance equal to the DC on a success"
  • "Set the High Jump DC based on the desired jump distance, apply DC reductions (such a from Flamboyant Athlete), then leap a distance equal to the originally chosen DC, before reductions"

With all this ambiguity, there is also a fifth possible reading, for when you have both Cloud Jump and Sudden Leap. Do they stack to allow triple distance on a high jump? Normally, Cloud Jump disallows this, but Sudden Leap sets the DC equal to that of Long Jump, independent of this restriction. The result would therefore be:

  • "Set the Long Jump DC equal to 1/3 the desired distance. (Cloud Jump)", then use this DC for High Jump (Sudden Leap). Leap the desired distance vertically on a success"

How can I reconcile all these conflicts and ambiguities?

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3 Answers 3

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The jump rules are conflicting between Legacy vs Remaster.

Long Jump did not originally have a default DC; the DC was set at the distance you wanted to travel. In the Remaster, they added that you don't fail the check (and therefore only Leap) unless you roll under 15... although you might not go as far as you wished.

With this information, it's clear to see the intended way is to treat the distance as equal to the rolled value (or triple for Cloud Jump). DC adjustments would be added afterward.

Whether or not you consider the DC of the jump the distance, the fact remains that, if the roll is not high enough to reach the target, they are not a viable target for the follow-up melee Strike/Felling Strike allowed. I recommend the rules for disrupted actions be applied (most notably the second paragraph specifically related to being mid-air) for cases where an Activity cannot be completed due to invalid targeting.

Hopefully the ambiguity is removed as more content is Remastered.

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  • \$\begingroup\$ Sudden Leap HAS been remastered though. It still uses the language "determine the DC using the Long Jump DCs" \$\endgroup\$
    – Strill
    Commented May 4 at 0:15
  • \$\begingroup\$ So... use the long jump DC. 15 or the distance to the target, whichever is further. You would need to make the distance to the target DC to qualify for making the melee Strike (or Felling Strike, per the Special field). If you have other effects that alter the DC, apply them after determining what the DC would have been. \$\endgroup\$ Commented May 4 at 16:18
  • \$\begingroup\$ The distance to the target is not a DC anymore though. In other words, Sudden Leap's behavior has changed dramatically with the remaster. \$\endgroup\$
    – Strill
    Commented May 6 at 17:27
  • \$\begingroup\$ If your GM is that concerned that they don't indicate that the distance you travel is the DC, then I honestly recommend they take a self-assessment. There is following rules, and then there is ignoring the guidance on ambiguous rules in a way that is going to do nothing to improve the game and only take up time. And that's coming from a self-admitting rules lawyer. To address your point directly, Sudden Leap references Long/High Jump and therefore uses the text therein. You can make the DC but not reach the target. Same result. \$\endgroup\$ Commented May 6 at 18:55
  • \$\begingroup\$ The distance you travel is explicitly NOT the DC. The DC is clearly 15. There's not even any question of ambiguity. I'm not sure what your point is. \$\endgroup\$
    – Strill
    Commented May 14 at 20:52
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For the sake of clarity, I'm just going to answer for the Remaster version of the rules. I'm going to parse out what I believe your questions are as well.

What is the DC of a Long Jump?

It's DC15. As you noted, the Long Jump rules are pretty clear that a DC15 Athletics check is necessary to succeed on the Long Jump and so long as the player makes that they then defer to the Success results which indicate that their jump distance is equal to their check result:

Success: You Leap up to a distance equal to your check result rounded down to the nearest 5 feet. You can't jump farther than your land Speed.

Notably, if the player fails to succeed on the check, they're subject to the Failure result, which defaults them to a normal horizontal leap:

Failure: You make a normal horizontal Leap. Critical Failure: You make a normal horizontal Leap, then fall and land prone.

In other words, even if you fail on this check, you do get something by default.

Does Cloud Jump's DC suggest that Long Jump's DC is variable?

It's important to realize that Long Jump's DC is variable for when the distance you are attempting to Long Jump matters. The DC15 element of it is intended as a floor for the difficulty and as stated above, if you fail to clear it then you default to a basic Leap.

If a character needs to clear a 20' Long Jump, but they only roll a 16 then they've effectively failed. They'll perform a Long Jump, but they're going to fall 4' short of their goal, so at that point the DM's going to need to make a decision. Probably a good time to pull out the Grab an Edge reaction.

As such, Cloud Jump could say passing a DC15 to jump 45' or a DC20 to jump 60'. Those are all consistent with the standard Long Jump rules.

What happens when a character has Sudden Leap which indicates that they should use the Long Jump DCs for the High Jump DCs?

It means exactly that. The default rules for a High Jump aren't very generous with what they allow:

You Stride, then attempt a DC 30 Athletics check to jump vertically. If you didn't Stride at least 10 feet, you automatically fail. This DC might be increased or decreased due to the situation, as determined by the GM.

Critical Success You Leap up to 8 feet vertically and 10 feet horizontally. Success You Leap up to 5 feet vertically and 5 feet horizontally. Failure You Leap normally. Critical Failure You fall prone in your space.

This is a pretty high DC to pass and you don't get much out of it. A martial character who gains Sudden Leap generally does so around level 8 and in doing so gets to break the default rules for vertical jumps. In doing so, they are able to access the vertical areas where enemies of that level might be flying around and harassing their party.

How high does a character travel when using Sudden Leap and High Jump?

I agree that this part is a bit unclear. The rules don't say to use the results from the Long Jump, just to use the DCs. However, given that this is a level 8 feat and the result for a Critical Success for High Jumps is only an 8-foot vertical distance, I think it's appropriate to defer to the more generous ruling which recognizes that Long Jump distances are based on the player's roll provided they exceed a DC15. So if the Fighter uses Sudden Leap and their check is a 30, then they can make a 30-foot leap into the air and smack some enemy flying around up there. Given that casters are able to fly at this level, this seems to be an appropriate power balance.

What happens if you have Cloud Jump and Sudden Leap and then perform a High Jump?

You're gonna jump hella high.

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Resolving rules inconsistencies is the job of the GM

There is no rules text clarifying the ambiguity in how Cloud Jump works, so you'll have to ask your GM to make a ruling. In doing so, they should work with the group:

If a rule seems to have wording with problematic repercussions or doesn’t work as intended, work with your group to find a good solution, rather than just playing with the rule as printed.

You can not apply the specific beats general guideline here, as both statements of how to determine the jump distance are specific in Cloud Jump

  • "Triple the distance you long jump", meaning triple the result of your roll, rounded down to the nearest 5feet and

  • "jump 60 feet on a successful DC 20 check", meaning triple the DC on a simple Success, because the result of your roll could be higher than 20

There is no demonstrable rules-as-written solution here. You could roll a 27, have a success agains DC 20, and thus jump 25 feet which if tripled would be 75 feet, not 60.

I think the simplest solution here is to read this as "jump at least 60 feet on a successful DC 20 check", i.e. triple the result of your roll.

But I‘m not your GM. Ask them. Or if you are the GM, do what you think makes most sense after working with your group.

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    \$\begingroup\$ "Ask your DM" is a valid answer to any question, so useful to none. What if I am the DM, looking for guidance? \$\endgroup\$
    – András
    Commented May 2 at 7:40
  • \$\begingroup\$ @András I disagree on your premise that its useful to none. Occasionally, there are simply rules that cannot be adjudicated as-is because they either don't exist or have internal conflicts. It's entirely possible that one or more of the new rules were written incorrectly in such a way that they do not work together, as written, and require GM intervention. In which case it is o the correct answer \$\endgroup\$ Commented May 22 at 2:05
  • \$\begingroup\$ @Ifusaso, again, what if the querent is the GM? You can provide guidance even in unclear cases (see Pyrotechnical's answer, or your own) or if not, you do not have to create an answer. \$\endgroup\$
    – András
    Commented May 22 at 7:13
  • \$\begingroup\$ Which NtH does. I'm not saying it's the best answer here, and I did not upvote it, personally. But 'defer to/make a GM call' isn't an invalid premise. They include evidence that the DC's do not line up, and no guidance is given for if the die roll is tripled or the distance (die roll reduced to nearest multiple of 5) is. They even provides guidance for how he would interpret the rules supplied. \$\endgroup\$ Commented May 22 at 16:05

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