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I was recently creating a new level 10 character for Pathfinder, and realized that I had absolutely no idea of how much AC / HP / Attack Bonus /Saves I was suppose to aim for.

Is there, somewhere, a benchmark of how much a character should have in the following traits:

  • Hit Points
  • Armor Class
  • Saves (good and bad)
  • Maximum Attack Bonus (i.e. Attack Bonus on your first attack)

Ideally, something that would take into account the level and class of the character would be perfect.

Note: I am specifically not looking for ways of reaching the maximum in one of these, or "here is the trick to have +99 in all saves at lvl3".

edit: the same kind of benchmark for abilities would be great: what should a lvl 5/10/15/25 character should have as a maximum stat? How many 20+ stats should he have?

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  • \$\begingroup\$ I would really like to have something similar to what was in the 3.0/3.5 DMs guide that listed each class and stats for every level. I think the idea was to have an NPC guide, but it gave a sort of "average fighter at level 5 has these stats". It was extremely useful. I'd love to have something like that for Pathfinder. \$\endgroup\$
    – darelf
    Feb 7, 2013 at 15:25

2 Answers 2

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Well, this is all back-of-the-envelope stuff, but here’s some guesses. I have been a bit generous to every score; it is probably not possible to maintain all of these numbers, but not all of them should matter to every character.

Hit Points

Varies massively between approximately

5×HD

5th: 25 HP; 10th: 50 HP; 15th: 150 HP; 20th: 200 HP

d6 class, 12 Con, no bonuses

Don’t go under 12 Con unless you’re planning on becoming Undead or taking Faerie Mysteries Initiate or something.

to

12×HD+2/5×HD²

5th: 70 HP; 10th: 160 HP; 15th: 270 HP; 20th: 400 HP

d12 class, 20 initial Con, +6 enhancement, +5 levels, +5 inherent

Yes, I feel that quadratic is necessary to describe such characters. I did assume that Con bonuses were gained linearly, which isn’t even remotely true but I didn’t want to do a table.

Armor Class

Rarely worthwhile to invest heavily in AC; under optimal settings, +1 chain mail and +1 shields are astonishingly common. Thus around 17 AC is about the minimum, with most characters getting around 20, and heavy armor characters getting around 26 pretty easily.

Not very level-dependent; you get most of this AC in the first few levels when you get your first magic armor.

Thus, my answer is

1st: 18, give or take 2; 5th+: 22, give or take 5 or so

Heavy-but-naïve investment can get around 40 but is not worth it, IMO. Too many things can attack you without regard for your AC. Of course, dedicated optimization can get it quite stratospheric, but that’s explicitly outside the scope of the question.

Saves

These, in particular, are on the high side because I’ve assumed a fairly-early Cloak of Resistance. So take these as kind of the high side of “normal.”

Good Save, Important Ability

6+HD/2+2/5×HD+min(HD/2,5) = 9/10×HD+6+min(HD/2,5)

5th: +12; 10th: +20; 15th: +24; 20th: +29

18 initial ability, +6 enhancement, +5 levels, +5 inherent

The min(HD/2,5) is for your standard Cloak of Resistance. They’re fairly cheap and fairly necessary, so I’m figuring you get the +5 by level 10. Might be overestimating slightly.

Good Save, Unimportant Ability

2+HD/2+min(HD/2,5)

5th: +6; 10th: +12; 15th: +14; 20th: +17

10 initial ability, no bonuses

Poor Save, Important Ability

3+HD/3+2/5×HD+min(HD/2,5)

5th: +8; 10th: +15; 15th: +19; 20th: +22

18 initial ability, +6 enhancement, +5 levels, +5 inherent

Poor Save, Unimportant

HD/3+min(HD/2,5)

5th: +3; 10th: +8; 15th: +10; 20th: +11

10 initial ability, no bonuses

Probably want to shore this up with save-specific bonuses, because you may not hit the values here for 5th and 10th, and the values for 15th and 20th are really poor because you’ve run out of resistance bonuses.

Save DC

For highest-level spell:

10+HD/2+5+2/5×HD = 15+9/10×HD

5th: 19; 10th: 24; 15th: 28; 20th: 33

20 initial ability, +6 enhancement, +5 levels, +5 inherent

This is probably the most accurate number I can offer, at least for full-casters: usually they care about only one ability score, which means their DC is going to get pumped at every opportunity. Plenty won’t start with a 20, but probably will start with an 18 if they have any say in the matter, and I didn’t include any miscellaneous bonuses to the DC (Spell Focus, whatever) so that’s a wash.

Maximum Attack Bonus

Full BAB

5+7/5×HD

5th: +12; 10th: +19; 15th: +26; 20th: +33

Full BAB, 20 initial ability, +6 enhancement, +5 levels, +5 inherent

Melee characters can have a hard time getting 20 Strength, particularly if we’re also using the 20 Constitution from above. Getting all of those bonuses to both abilities is very difficult as well. In reality, either this or HP is likely lower. Or, more likely, each is a bit lower.

Medium BAB and cares about attacking

5+¾×HD+2/5×HD = 5+23/20×HD

5th: +10; 10th: +16; 15th: +22; 20th: +28

¾ BAB, 20 initial ability, +6 enhancement, +5 levels, +5 inherent

Similar problems to full BAB characters, and with lack of full BAB the to-hit ability score becomes perhaps even more important. A lot these characters favor Dexterity really, really hard, too, so it can be easier for them.

Medium BAB and does not care about attacking

You just said you didn’t care.

Poor BAB

It doesn’t matter.

Why are you trying to hit armored AC to begin with? At very-low levels you may have to, but then the difference in BAB hardly matters, and otherwise you should be hitting touch AC or saves. Touch AC barely scales at all (for that matter, humanoid armored AC doesn’t scale much either), so by mid levels you should hit that reliably.

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    \$\begingroup\$ For the ones who rely on HD, do you think there would be a way to put the resulting values for levels 5/10/15/20? Would make it easier to consult :) \$\endgroup\$
    – Cristol.GdM
    Feb 6, 2013 at 0:25
  • \$\begingroup\$ @Mikalichov Done, hope that helps. Because they're from the formulae rather than figured out at each level, they’re far from perfect – in particular, I've linearized ability score bonuses which isn't how they actually happen at all. And, as noted, they're intentionally on the high side in each case. Still, should give you reasonable benchmarks. \$\endgroup\$
    – KRyan
    Feb 6, 2013 at 1:05
  • \$\begingroup\$ Yes, supposing a 36 in your main abilities might give people a big inferiority complex :) Especially given how much more expensive it became in PF to boost several abilities at the same time, and how there are overall less ways of getting hyper high stats. Actually, how messy would it be to add the values for more "common" stat values of around 24? \$\endgroup\$
    – Cristol.GdM
    Feb 6, 2013 at 2:33
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    \$\begingroup\$ Well, as I remember it in 3.5 you could have a Belt of Strength, Gloves of Dex and Amulet of Health. Purchasing the three at +6 would take three slots but cost 'only' 108000. This is not an option in PF, where all the physical boost items are Belts, hence the above linked belt, which is the only way of boosting all physical attributes (without going into custom items). But yeah, not a major point at all :) \$\endgroup\$
    – Cristol.GdM
    Feb 6, 2013 at 3:43
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    \$\begingroup\$ @Mikalichov Actually, that belt costs exactly what two of the ability-boosting items from 3.5 would cost, so basically if you had reason to get two, you now get all three. That's at best a wash, but generally it's a discount since few people are going to completely ignore the third ability. And the individual-ability items are (considerably) cheaper as well. Ultimately, these are good things and also mean that these numbers are more frequently accurate. I am going off the assumption that Pathfinder WBL is similar to 3.5's, though. \$\endgroup\$
    – KRyan
    Feb 6, 2013 at 5:07
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Paizo has published their 'iconic character' stat blocks for levels 1,7, & 12. (20 point buy)

http://www.pathfindercommunity.net/iconic-characters/

The same information can be found in:

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game NPC Codex © 2012, Paizo Publishing, LLC;

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    \$\begingroup\$ Note that the iconic characters are awful and much weaker than any character anyone would ever actually make of that class without specifically avoiding both power and focus. Nonetheless, +1 for a list similar to what the OP asked for. \$\endgroup\$
    – Please stop being evil
    Mar 18, 2015 at 5:23

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