My friend and I are playing D&D 3.5 and I want to change from being a Lawful Good Paladin. My DM will allow me to make him fall if I make it look good and choose a new class that's fit for a fallen Paladin.

I already have a story or quest for his fall but I don't really know what class he should change to. He's going to be True Neutral, but for him, anything goes for revenge.The reason he isn't going to become Evil is he will only do evil acts for his revenge but will help anyone in dire need.

My Paladin is human and ambidextrous, has dual wield mastery for longswords and wears modified half plate amour for freedom of movement. He has lost all faith in gods and religion and will be the main melee for the party and the role as leader of it. His new mission in life is the destruction of his former religion's army for the deaths of his family and home town.

What class(es) would be appropriate for this? I can change feats but not items. He's level 18 and Items are 1 full suit of modified half plate with a +5 to movement and reflex saves, 2 reinforced steel longswords Enchanted to +4 and to turn undead that are under my level. They are the combat items and level I will have at the beginning of new campaign arc.

Books allowed:

  • PHB I, DMG
  • Complete Warrior
  • Complete Scoundrel
  • Complete Adventurer
  • \$\begingroup\$ Ambidextrous is not a thing in 3.5. Not aware of any Dual Wield Mastery, either. Can you clarify? \$\endgroup\$
    – KRyan
    Apr 22, 2013 at 2:10
  • \$\begingroup\$ @ KRyan I just asked my DM if my guy could be Ambidextrous and dual wield and he said yes and made it work with rules of the game as far as I remember I attack faster but have have weak block compared to using sword and shield or using a sword two handed \$\endgroup\$
    – user8053
    Apr 22, 2013 at 3:03
  • \$\begingroup\$ Doesn't the alignment restriction make this an issue though? \$\endgroup\$
    – CatLord
    Mar 3, 2015 at 22:33

4 Answers 4


Urban Ranger

Given your obsession with your former organization and your focus on dual-wielding longswords, the Urban Ranger variant seems like the best fit for you:

At the game master's discretion, an urban ranger may select an organization instead of a creature type as his favored enemy. For example, a character might select a particular thieves' guild, merchant house, or even the city guard. The favored enemy bonuses would apply to all members of the chosen organization, regardless of their creature type or subtype.

You can take your old church as your favoured enemy, and focus on being a meleer spinning about with two swords. If that variant isn't allowed, you can simply take Ranger with a favoured enemy of whatever type of humanoid is most prevalent in your church.

If you can request more books, I would recommend Warblade from Tome of Battle or Marshal from the Miniatures Handbook.

  • \$\begingroup\$ I've been going back and forth on this for a while, but ultimately I don't like this answer. This should be a good answer. The ranger is supposed to be ideal here, but the class fails its execution. Favored Enemy/Organization offers really small bonuses. He already has Two-Weapon Fighting so the combat style doesn't help. The Core spells for the Ranger are pretty weak, and too-little, too-late. I just don't think it delivers what it promises, or much of anything else for that matter, and I don't think it's a good fit. I'm not voting, but I think the comment is worth considering. \$\endgroup\$
    – KRyan
    Apr 22, 2013 at 16:36
  • 5
    \$\begingroup\$ Completely agree, @kyran, but failing the class on execution is kind of moot in context of the question. Querent is looking for thematic match, not mechanical awesome. And FE (org) works if your campaign revolves around it. ::shrug:: \$\endgroup\$ Apr 23, 2013 at 11:59


The Avenger is literally a nonchaotic-instead-of-evil version of the core Assassin, but it’s pretty perfect for your character. It gets Sneak Attack, which works well with dual wielding, some pretty solid spells (though much better if you have Spell Compendium), and full-BAB. The fluff is basically something like the Assassins of Assassin’s Creed (and plenty of other sources): what is one life measured against many, etc.

But for you, I think you should go much more to the roots of the class: to its very name. If necessary because of ability score problems, you might consider telling your DM that your character is not the cold, calculated killer of a traditional Assassin or Avenger, but rather a ruthless vigilante dead-set on revenge, and thus try to argue that you should use Charisma instead of Intelligence for the spellcasting. It certainly seems appropriate, particularly for a former Paladin whose zeal powered his old spellcasting.

There are only 10 levels of Avenger; for the rest, I’d consider Rogue and/or Blackguard. Blackguard is the traditional fallen-Paladin class, and it’s not bad (aside from the incredibly poorly-considered Hide prereq, which is almost impossible for any Paladin who didn’t plan on Falling to meet), but it’s definitely Evil not neutral. On the other hand, while Rogue loses BAB, it will give you a number of useful features and more Sneak Attack. A single level of Shadowdancer for the Hide in Plain Sight is also not a bad idea, if you do go in for the stealth aspects of these classes.

  • \$\begingroup\$ I like the Idea but the Avenger sounds like a Prestige Class I don't know if my DM will let that fly even if he is level 18 \$\endgroup\$
    – user8053
    Apr 22, 2013 at 3:27
  • \$\begingroup\$ @user8053 It is a prestige class, but it's A. perfect for the situation your character is dealing with, and B. not in any way imbalanced. I cannot imagine any reason why he would deny you. \$\endgroup\$
    – KRyan
    Apr 22, 2013 at 3:29
  • \$\begingroup\$ @user8053 Why does your GM not allow prestige classes? \$\endgroup\$ Mar 3, 2015 at 22:16
  • \$\begingroup\$ @MichaelCampbell It's unlikely that you'll get an answer about that. If you look at the OP's profile, they came on for a week two years ago, and haven't been back since. \$\endgroup\$
    – DuckTapeAl
    Mar 4, 2015 at 5:38
  • \$\begingroup\$ @DuckTapeAl Hmm, good point, I just saw the question pop up and assumed it was recent. Didn't realise someone had necromancy'd the question ;) \$\endgroup\$ Mar 4, 2015 at 6:19

Immediately, This Comic Strip comes to mind. So Why reinvent the wheel? If your DM is willing to let you play a fallen paladin without sticking you on the ed-paladin rules, then go vanilla Fighter. Almost every class available to you that specializes in two-weapon fighting sticks you with light armor proficiencies which unless you get some incredible material or proficiency that lets half plate (normally heavy armor) count as light since even Mithral only allows one step down. The only exception I'm aware of, is the Halfweight enchantment from the Underdark book, which is not an accessible material.

Therefore, while you'll need a decent dexterity you won't really get much use of for your AC, you can still take the Two-Weapon fighting feats without slowing down. Your other option is that even though you "wield" two longswords, you only use one at a time and thus carry swords with different specializations (such as switching your second blade for one with Shocking or something for when you're not fighting undead)


on the topic of style and background, I think the Greyguard makes the most sense right off teh bat. but if you're planning on going so far as to completely reject all religion and gods, that class loses it's appropriateness immediately. the same goes for Knight-Errant. in this situation, Avenger looks like the best choice. I liked the idea of the Urban Ranger, but the flaws pointed out in that choice should definitely be considered.

you could also opt for the Vigilante class, itself. but that's not exactly a long class, and it's abilities are more meant to tack onto other existing abilities. so I suggest Avenger all the way.

  • \$\begingroup\$ -1 because he specifically said he will be True Neutral with no religion. Avenger is a CG class, comes from an unapproved source, and still requires faith (as an alternate Paladin build) \$\endgroup\$
    – CatLord
    Mar 3, 2015 at 22:30

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