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The wording of the combat expertise feat states...

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A character without the Combat Expertise feat can fight defensively while using the attack or full attack action to take a -4 penalty on attack rolls and gain a +2 dodge bonus to Armor Class.

Since the bonus granted for combat expertise changes that instead to a 1/1 tradeoff, does the use of this feat count as fighting defensively for the purposes of class features?

Examples include the thief acrobat's agile fighting and the duelist's elaborate parry.

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No, by the RAW it does not.

You can actually both fight defensively and use Combat Expertise at the same time, if you wish. While very similar in effect, they are treated as fundamentally different by the rules.

Fighting defensively is a special combat action, and you don't need to use that action to use Combat Expertise. If you did, the wording of the feat would be very different. This interpretation is also backed up by the official FAQ, bottom of p.36, as well as the wording of the Total Defense action.

However!

I personally think this is a little silly, and think these sorts of mechanics should really have been unified. If you houserule it, allowing the bonuses to trigger if you take a -4 to attack would be playing it safe. (Though probably not necessary unless it seems overpowered in play.)

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  • \$\begingroup\$ +1 agreed that it's a bit silly, but thank you for the link! -4 does seem like a good trigger since that's what they'd be taking anyway. \$\endgroup\$
    – LitheOhm
    Aug 16, 2013 at 20:23
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    \$\begingroup\$ A possible design reason: Prestige class features often exist to make underpowered combat options a viable option. Fighting defensively is rather weak, so these prestige classes improve it. Similarly, you might see PrCs based around unarmed combat, sub-optimal weapons, or grappling. \$\endgroup\$
    – Joe Dovahkiin
    Aug 16, 2013 at 20:25
  • \$\begingroup\$ Well, that's not exactly a design reason -- it's a natural consequence of the original design. It does make it harder to houserule. \$\endgroup\$
    – starwed
    Aug 16, 2013 at 20:38
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    \$\begingroup\$ I agree, there are a few Feats (e.g. "Deadly Defence" from Complete Scoundrel) that trigger for either "Fighting Defensively" or Combat Expertise of at least -2. So, that's what I would do for those other abilities as well. \$\endgroup\$
    – Arrya Regan
    Aug 16, 2013 at 21:04
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    \$\begingroup\$ Yeah, I almost always see things that trigger "when Fighting Defensively or using Combat Expertise," sometimes with a minimum penalty/bonus from Combat Expertise. It's so common that I suspect anything that doesn't have it was an oversight because the author thought Combat Expertise counted as Fighting Defensively. \$\endgroup\$
    – KRyan
    Aug 17, 2013 at 13:55
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Starwed has a point. But, if you look at it under the guise of virtual feats, if you use CE for at least 2 points you are simulating the effects of Defensive Fighting. So, I would have to say if you use Combat Expertise for 2 points, then yes, you meet the condition of Defensive Fighting

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  • \$\begingroup\$ Yeah, like @KRyan's comment on Starwed's answer. It seems like it should just be there. \$\endgroup\$
    – LitheOhm
    Aug 17, 2013 at 18:54
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No it does not.

Combat Expertise and Fighting Defensively are unrelated and albeit both provide a defensive bonus trade off for offensive capabilities. When you look closely, both are different in other game mechanics, let me explain.

1 - Fighting Defensively : Allows a -4 To hit penalty for a +2 AC Dodge bonus, you need to declare the attack or full attack action in order to use it. IF you have 5+ ranks in tumble, the AC bonus granted is +3 AC instead.

2 - Combat Expertise: Allows a 1/1 trade off between to hit bonus and AC Dodge bonuses in a granular fashion (you can choose to trade 1,2,3,4 or 5 pts if your base attack bonus is high enough). Ranks in tumble will not affect this trade off or AC bonus received in any ways.

So fighting defensively is an all or nothing maneuver while combat expertise allows you to tailor exactly how much to hit penalty you are willing to trade for an AC bonus depending on the situation...

NOTE: Fighting defensively and combat expertise are providing an AC DODGE bonus..and dodge bonus DO STACK, so you could declare both actions during an attack or full attack. So for example a character with a +5 BAB and +5 Rank in tumble could actually decide to take a -9 to hit penalty and gain a +8 AC Dodge bonus...

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Yes, it does.

Combat expertise reflects the character becoming better at fighting defensively while attacking (hence the improved trade-off) so use of the feat falls under the term "fighting defensively."

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    \$\begingroup\$ Sorry, I guess I misread the description of the feat.. I just think your answer downplays the importance of "fighting defensively" as an actual game term. \$\endgroup\$
    – dlras2
    Aug 16, 2013 at 20:19
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    \$\begingroup\$ @DanRasmussen please answer then. That's why I posted both Q+A at the same time - I want to find dissenting opinions and understand them. \$\endgroup\$
    – LitheOhm
    Aug 16, 2013 at 20:21

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