Can I make Mass Lesser Vigor persistent? I am creating my cleric character and considering taking the persistent spell feat and powering it up with divine metamagic.

The conflicting part is: Mass Lesser Vigor has duration 10 rounds + 1 round/level (max 25 rounds). So it has a maximum duration and hence cannot be persisted, according to my DM, but there are a tons of builds on the internet, where Mass Lesser Vigor is considered something that can be made persistent.

The key argument in those threads is: persistent spell doesn't extend the duration of spell to 24 hours, but more like replaces it, but the wording of feat clearly states...

Spells with a fixed or personal range can have their duration increased to 24 hours. Spells of instantaneous duration cannot be affected by this feat, nor can spells whose effects are discharged.

And yet, it still does not say that spells that have max duration amount cannot be persisted to 24 hours, kind of confusing.


1 Answer 1


Your DM is wrong, or houseruling

If the claim is that there is an official rule that prevents you from persisting things with a maximum duration, he is incorrect. That rule does not exist, and mass lesser vigor is definitely persistable. Note that Persist Spell explicitly changes the Duration of a spell, and therefore that maximum is no longer in force.

If he’s saying that he’s making such a houserule, then that’s his prerogative as DM. I don’t think there’s a lot of merit to that particular change; it doesn’t affect that many spells (and there are much more powerful spells than mass lesser vigor that you can still persist under this rule), but that is his call.

You should therefore ask him to clarify which it is, and if he thinks it is an official rule, you might ask him to show you the rule. Generally, though, many DMs don’t like being “called out” like that, so that depends on your relationship with the DM and the relationship your table has with official rules and houserules. If he means it as a houserule, you could try to convince him not to make it, or you could ask him for an opportunity to change some of the choices you made with respect to your character without knowing of the houserule.

Or just persist something even better, like divine power or something.

  • \$\begingroup\$ no, it's not a houserule, the general point is that spell that has max duration, will only last that duration (25 turns for vigor) and expire after that. And description of Persistent spell says, that spell in fact has duration increased, so it's kind of hard to argue, i am looking for some rules, that says, that spell can be extended over max duration. The character is 5 lvl and vigor will be quite helpfull for party \$\endgroup\$
    – Shf
    Commented Jan 25, 2014 at 16:04
  • \$\begingroup\$ @Shf The feat extends the duration "to 24 hours," and in general in 3.5 specifics trump general statements. It's a property of the Persistent Spell feat that durations become 24 hours, and there aren't explicit exceptions made for spells with capped durations. Your GM, if they choose to disregard that, is in fact houseruling. \$\endgroup\$
    – LitheOhm
    Commented Jan 25, 2014 at 16:20
  • 1
    \$\begingroup\$ The Duration is not increased to 24 hours like the feat says if it's limited to 25 turns, so you are not getting the benefit listed in the feat. There is no rule explicitly dealing with such maximums (they're pretty rare), but there doesn't need to be. I can't prove a negative though. Burden of proof should be on him to show such a rule. \$\endgroup\$
    – KRyan
    Commented Jan 25, 2014 at 16:23
  • 1
    \$\begingroup\$ LitheOhm, KRyan thanks, i think, i could go with this. Even if it would be forbidden as houserule, i can trade something other instead :D Though doubt, that Persistent Anti-magic field with Exceptional Spell Aim would still be up for the trade :D \$\endgroup\$
    – Shf
    Commented Jan 25, 2014 at 16:26

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