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Introduction

Pathfinder's Mythic Adventures sets out rules for so-called Mythic characters. Within this ruleset is also an definition of Mythic spells. They say the following about this:

Mythic spells draw upon the caster's mythic power to create more powerful magical effects-mythic fireball sets affected creatures on fire, mythic mage armor can negate critical hits, and so on. These spells aren't separate spells you gain as a spell known from your spellcasting class, but rather mythically charged versions of spells you already know.

Basically, Mythic spells are existing spells but made more powerful to appear mythic. In general it is my understanding that Mythic spells are more and better of the same rather than gaining more features. A mythic fireball for instance increases in damage and can set targets on fire which is in line with the original spell. A mythic fireball doesn't gain energy drain which could be seen as an extra feature.

Psionics

Since Mythic Adventures focuses solely on the core classes of Paizo, Psionics is sadly missing. There are plans to introduce Psionics as Mythic as can be read on the forum of Dreamscarred but that will not help players who need some guidance right now.

Mythic power

The power I am interested in augmenting is called Mind Thrust which has the following description.

Mind Thrust

Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)

Target: One creature

Duration: Instantaneous

Saving Throw: Will negates; Power Resistance: Yes

Power Points: 1

You instantly deliver a massive assault on the thought pathways of any one creature, dealing 1d10 points of damage to it.

Augment For every additional power point you spend, this power’s damage increases by 1d10 points. For each extra 2d10 points of damage, this power’s save DC increases by 1.

If we take a look at the properties of all the Augmented Mythic spells we see that most mythic versions of spells receive a damage die increase. Given the fact that Mind Thrust uses a 1d10 die, 1d12 would be the logical next step. Or perhaps 2d10, doubling its damage.

But for a mythic version of a power this is too little. Areas where this power would excel and really gain its mythic status would have to be sought in the saving throw and the range. Unfortunately what we also see on the Augmented Mythic spells page is that none, unless I have overlooked, modifies the saving throw. There is only one instance: The magic missle mythic augmentation loses it's spell resistance and becomes unblockable. But magic missle did not have any saves to begin with, making it not fair to compare to this psionic power.

Balanced

My question to the RPG Stackexchange is:

What would a balanced Mind Thrust power look like given the Augmented Mythic spells as foundation?

It is too easy to overpower but also underpower this. Asking this question here, where many people can comment, would hopefully bring a general accepted and balanced version of this mythic psionic power.

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  • \$\begingroup\$ What, exactly, would you consider to be "balanced" in a Mythic environment? This is a rule set that placed stupidly powerful abilities, abilities that are pretty much only useful in circumstances where the campaign couldn't continue without them, and pure-fluff abilities that do nothing mechanically, all on the same level. To introduce Mythic into your game at all is to throw balance completely out the window. There can be no "balanced Mythic version" of anything, because Mythic lacks anything approaching a balance point. \$\endgroup\$ – Matthew Najmon Jan 27 at 14:57
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Here is the official ruling for that power, taken from Psionics Augmented: Mythic Psionics (by Dreamscarred Press):

Mind Thrust

On a successful save, the target suffers half damage, instead of negating the effect. In addition, on a failed save, the target creature is dazed for one round.

Augmented (3rd): If you expend one use of mythic power, you deal half your tier in ability damage to one mental ability score (your choice) of the target.

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  • \$\begingroup\$ Thank you for answering his question, it's still relevant to my character and party :) \$\endgroup\$ – Jeff Jul 11 '17 at 10:13
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Here lies an innate problem for trying to make psionics mythic: Theres no upper cap (per round). All the other mythic spells Ive been probing through are limited by the max number of dice that can be used to a cap or rely upon some other means to keep things balanced.

With psionics, they are already facing toward the future. The only limit is Power points to augment. And that is the only thing capping their damage per round.

It would be easy to just bump the die up to d12 but that doesnt necessarily have the same impact as the other mythic spells. Its just not as "cool".

Give it half damage on miss would work decently since in this case the power would be completely negated otherwise. It doesn't boost the spell well beyond mere mortal means but it does alter a fundamental part of it without wholly destabilizing things.

Addendum: For 2 uses of mythic power it would probably be ok to increase the damage die as well to d12 (in addition to the half damage on save as the mythic pool of points is a lot smaller until you get up there in teirs) with a Minimum required tier of 4.

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  • \$\begingroup\$ Half the damage on miss seem like a good addition in making the power more Mythic. Regarding the 1d10 to 1d12, if I think out loudly, it doesn't look that spectacular though. A 1d10 averages on 5.5 while a 1d12 averages on 6.5. If we look at Fireball, damage increases from 1d6 (~3.5) to 1d10(~5.5) and also gives a chance to set a target on fire. Since "Dazed" is common as psionic effect, perhaps adding this effect to the 1d12 on saving the fail might give it the mythic load it needs? \$\endgroup\$ – Jeff Sep 10 '14 at 20:47
  • \$\begingroup\$ The catch for mythic fireball is it is capped at 10d10 at caster level 10. With psionics, you dont have a cap at the lower or upper end. You can just pump power points into a level 2 psionic character, mythic 1 to deal a cool 5d10 or 5d12 (all 5 bonus power points granted by 20 ability score) without any feats involved. Mythic exists separate from actual level. More than enough to oneshot anything with decent rolls versus a lvl 2 character. Remember there are no limitations for mythic, it can start as early as level 1 should you have a story reason. \$\endgroup\$ – TechImp Sep 10 '14 at 21:06
  • \$\begingroup\$ While the high end might not be phased as much, this is an ability that psionic classes can learn at lvl 1 and has great scaling ability as it is. \$\endgroup\$ – TechImp Sep 10 '14 at 21:08
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    \$\begingroup\$ I have to disagree with that statement. Psionics are capped based on the rule: "A power, including augments, may never cost more power points than the manifester level of the manifester". In essence a level 20 Wilder would only be able to manifest a Mind Thrust augmented 19 times. Resulting in a 20d10. I've left out manifester cap raising means such as items and wild surge for sake of simplicity. \$\endgroup\$ – Jeff Sep 10 '14 at 22:06
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    \$\begingroup\$ The manifester level cap is the single most important, fundamental rule of d20 psionics. If you were unaware of that, in my opinion you were far too unfamiliar with the system to be attempting to answer the question. We want expertise here. \$\endgroup\$ – KRyan Jul 10 '17 at 12:40
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Mythic spells, as I understand them, do things like increasing dice steps by 2 (d6s to d10s) and increase AOEs by 100% (roughly the same as Widen power, a metapsionic of +4 manifester levels.) or add continual/burning damage. (example, mythic fireball, page 94 of of mythic adventures)

What I saw in terms of improving mind thrust, wasn't really damage. Where it really suffers is the saving throw for total negation, and the range of short.

So increasing the range to medium would be a good start, this would be approximately similar in potency to the doubled AOE of a 20ft = 40ft radius.

That still leaves some other options. Changing it so the save is for 1/2 is one way of doing it. Alternatively, you can take a page from Magic Missile and grant the power the ability to partially penetrate defenses OR influence mind affecting immune creatures. The former would entail an impossibly long list of spells like mind blank you could bypass, the alternative is much easier:

The power takes on a Force descriptor, by doing something like Augmented (6th) and expending two uses of mythic power. This allows the Mind Thrust to effect things like undead, plants, oozes, and constructs, and force has special workarounds for things like incorporeal targets.

If you absolutely must increase damage, going from d10s to d12s would be sufficient, especially if the damage became save for 1/2.

So, in sum, my choice of changes:

Basic: Range Becomes Medium, d10s become d12's

Recommended: Save for 1/2

Augment option: Damage type becomes force

Variant Augment: Bypasses a short list of mental defense spells/powers

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