My GM is planning on getting our group involved in Mass Combat. This system relies on your Leadership score, with certain Boons unlocking only at higher scores, and some numerical values depending on it.

Right now our party is pretty low-level, but I think I know where he is going with this. I told him I was planning on taking Leadership as a feat (my charisma modifier is +4), and now he wants to alter the rules and I think he will let me take that Feat earlier than level 7.

I fear that having this feat this early in the game can make my character overpowered (outside of Mass Combat).

What can I (as a sorcerer) offer in trade to keep my character balanced below level 7 even with the Leadership feat?

I'm just looking for balance here, and I don't think my character is underpowered. Would it suffice to not take any followers/cohorts until level 7?


closed as unclear what you're asking by C. Ross Sep 17 '14 at 15:21

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  • \$\begingroup\$ @HeyICanChan and not the question I am asking \$\endgroup\$ – David Wilkins Sep 17 '14 at 13:55
  • \$\begingroup\$ @HeyICanChan I presume the Mass Combat rules linked involve your Leadership score in some fashion, thus appearing to require Leadership to be effective at it. \$\endgroup\$ – KRyan Sep 17 '14 at 14:20
  • \$\begingroup\$ @KRyan That's the way it appears to me. I see some army abilities that require a certain leadership level, while others specify that you don't need the Feat when calculating the Leadership level. \$\endgroup\$ – David Wilkins Sep 17 '14 at 14:22
  • \$\begingroup\$ David, I've clarified your question, based on the "misses" we have as answers so far. It appears that people are not familiar with the Mass Combat rules you're asking about, but saw the reference to Leadership and thought they could ignore the actual question to talk about that. Please confirm that I have understood the question correctly, and that the edit is valid. If not, you can undo it by clicking the "Edited time" link above my name in the question. \$\endgroup\$ – KRyan Sep 17 '14 at 14:25
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    \$\begingroup\$ @MrLemon It is about Balancing the Feat outside of Mass Combat so that I can use the Feat's advantages IN Mass Combat at levels <7, as it seems to be required for some of the Boons in Mass Combat \$\endgroup\$ – David Wilkins Sep 17 '14 at 14:42

Your questions boil down to:

  1. What is Mass Combat Leadership and do you have to have the Leadership feat.
  2. If Leadership feat is not needed how does the feat effect Mass Combat.
  3. Will taking Leadership early make my character overpowered and should I offer one of my abilities in return for getting the feat early.

So lets answer these questions.

  1. Mass Combat leadership does not require the Leadership feat. (See quote below)
  2. The leadership feat does effect mass combat's leadership score if you are the commander of an army.

    Leadership: The commander's character level + Charisma modifier. If the commander is a monster, use HD instead of character level. If the commander has the Leadership feat, increase this value by 3. This number is a prerequisite for some boons.

Just to clarify at no point other than the above qoute does the Mass Combat rules reference the Leadership FEAT's score. Only the above score. If it helps think of all references to Leadership in Mass Combat as Commander Score

  1. Leadership is not broken as the DM controls every aspect of it. Your Cohort and followers are all controlled by the DM. Hey I can Chan covers this in his answer quite well.

First lets look at how leadership the Feat is calculated.

Leadership Score: Your base Leadership score equals your level plus your Charisma modifier.

You are level 3 and your CHA Mod is 4. So your score is 7. Looking at the leadership chart you would have no followers at all and your cohort would be limited to level 5. But since your Cohort has to be 2 levels below your level he/she would be level 1.

This wouldn't really break your character significantly as until you reach level 6 you wouldn't have any followers, just your cohort. At level 6 you would gain 5 level 1 followers. At that point they are mostly useless in battle. So for levels 3-5 you would just have your cohort who won't effect the party in anyway your DM shouldn't be able to handle easily.

Now that leadership the feat is covered lets look at mass combat and how its most important stat Army Challenge Rating(ACR) is calculated and if leadership would effect that in a significant way.

An "army" of one is a fine army size and its ACR is -8 of the individual creature's CR. At level 3 your CR is 3 and even with your cohort you don't meet the prerequisite of 10 for the next army size up.(Which still takes a -6) Until the army gets up to 100 creatures in size it will be taking negatives to it's ACR. And once it is 100 it is the same level as most of the army. So an army of level 1s would still only be ACR 1.

ACR is highly significant in Mass combat because it determines Defense Value(Equivalent of AC) and Offense Modifier(BAB) so a negative ACR means you have a very small chance to hit a force larger than yourself.

ACR also determines the armies health.

So Leadership is not broken even if taken at lower levels. When used to strengthen your army it doesn't really effect anything at the level you are at. Even at higher levels it wouldn't help much.

  • \$\begingroup\$ This does not address the actual question, because it does not address the linked Mass Combat rules. \$\endgroup\$ – KRyan Sep 17 '14 at 14:23
  • \$\begingroup\$ @KRyan The entire bottom half of my answer is referencing the Mass Combat rules. Please explain how I did not address the linked Mass Combat rules. I am also in chat if that would be a better medium. \$\endgroup\$ – Aaron Sep 17 '14 at 14:29
  • \$\begingroup\$ Well, 1. because you discuss things out of order to an extent, and 2. because I'm not familiar with the rules myself, so I didn't recognize ACR, Defense Value, or Offense Modifier as being from that system. Sorry, was reading quickly. \$\endgroup\$ – KRyan Sep 17 '14 at 14:31
  • \$\begingroup\$ @KRyan The question was edited while I was typing my answer or just after I posted. I will edit my answer to better answer the question. \$\endgroup\$ – Aaron Sep 17 '14 at 14:33
  • \$\begingroup\$ The question was edited to be clearer, but not to change its meaning or what was being asked for. \$\endgroup\$ – KRyan Sep 17 '14 at 14:36

From reading the linked page, specifically the Commander section, it appears that the Leadership Score used in Mass Combat, is not the same as the Leadership Score used to calculate the number of followers from the Leadership feat. In fact, if the Commander has the Leadership feat, he/she gets a +3 to his Mass Combat Leadership score. So while the Leadership feat does help in Mass Combat, it is not necessary for boons or other Mass Combat abilities.

Since all you would get from the Leadership feat is a +3 to your Mass Combat leadership score and a 1st level cohort at the cost of a feat, I don't think you really need to give up anything for trade to maintain balance. You would not even start getting followers until 6th level unless you increased your CHA modifier.

  • \$\begingroup\$ I don't think a leadership score of 7 grants any followers, but that isn't the reason for taking the Feat. We will have guards on our side to guide, but I was more asking for the Feat because of the army abilities that the Leadership Feat grants \$\endgroup\$ – David Wilkins Sep 17 '14 at 14:39
  • \$\begingroup\$ The question has been clarified significantly since I began answering. I'll edit my answer to focus on the new question. \$\endgroup\$ – Red_Shadow Sep 17 '14 at 14:40

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