I'm playing a Rogue and I'd like to improve my chances of Feinting for the purposes of getting some sneak attack damage. I was reading Honeyed Words on the pfsrd, but don't have the Advanced Player's Guide (APG) to check this detail.

Can Honeyed Words be used for your Bluff roll when feinting?

NOTE: this is NOT the Honeyed Words trait, but about the Rogue ability of the same name from the APG.

  • \$\begingroup\$ Why did you think this might not work? It looks like it pretty clearly would. Is there some ambiguous conflict you had in mind? Specifying what you thought might be the problem will result in better answers, as we'd then be able to address that particular issue. \$\endgroup\$ – Matthew Najmon Feb 8 '15 at 17:53

Yes, the rogue talent honeyed words can be used prior to a feint to gain the talent's benefit when making a feint attempt

The talent has as its Benefit:

Once per day, the rogue can roll two dice while making a Bluff check, and take the better result. She must choose to use this talent before making the Bluff check.

No mention is made of the talent honeyed words being restricted only to specific uses of the Bluff skill, and

Feinting is a standard action. To feint, make a Bluff skill check. The DC of this check is equal to 10 + your opponent's base attack bonus + your opponent's Wisdom modifier. If your opponent is trained in Sense Motive, the DC is instead equal to 10 + your opponent's Sense Motive bonus, if higher. If successful, the next melee attack you make against the target does not allow him to use his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). This attack must be made on or before your next turn. (here)

(As an aside, feinting is among the worst ways of getting sneak attack damage. Better (and, of course, riskier) to wade in and flank foes with your friends (perhaps taking a rogue talent that improves offense or defense instead). Further, if I remember the math correctly, rolling twice is roughly equivalent of a +5 bonus on the roll, so consider carefully if, at low levels, one of the character's precious rogue talents is worth a +5 to one specific skill check 1/day (even if that skill is the Bluff skill).)


NOTE: I misunderstood the author's intent (before the addition of the clarifying note that this was about the Rogue Talent, not the Trait). As HeyICanChan said, the Rogue Talent can be used to feint.

Original Answer


Honeyed Words trait:

You receive a +1 trait bonus on Diplomacy checks. In addition, you receive a +1 trait bonus to the DC of any charm or compulsion that does not provide ongoing control and results in peaceful acts, such as calm emotions, sleep, or a suggestion to lay down arms.

None of that grants a bonus to Bluff directly, so we have to look at Feint.

Feint in Combat:

You can also use Bluff to feint in combat, causing your opponent to be denied his Dexterity bonus to his AC against your next attack. The DC of this check is equal to 10 + your opponent’s base attack bonus + your opponent’s Wisdom modifier. If your opponent is trained in Sense Motive, the DC is instead equal to 10 + your opponent’s Sense Motive bonus, if higher. For more information on feinting in combat, see Combat.

(note: the "more information" clarifies that feinting is not a Combat Maneuver, and that there are penalties for feinting against various types of creatures)

While feinting does reference a DC, it's the DC that the feinter must match in order to successfully feint against the opponent (so, you certainly would hope that the +1 trait bonus to that DC doesn't count). Further, the action does not seem to match the spirit of the peaceful acts listed in the trait description.

Additionally, feinting is not described as a charm or compulsion.

Nothing in the RAW would indicate that Honeyed Words would aid in feinting in combat.

Fast-Talker is a trait which would grant a bonus to feint attempts, as it grants a +1 trait bonus to bluff.

  • \$\begingroup\$ Ah, sorry but I think you have the wrong Honeyed Words. There is a trait called Honeyed Words, but there is a separate Rogue ability (from the Advanced Players Guide) with the same name. At least that's my understanding from my Google searches. Hard to verify without the books. Bad move on Paizo's part, really. \$\endgroup\$ – highbandwidth Feb 8 '15 at 9:29
  • \$\begingroup\$ Yep, looks like that's the case. What's the protocol around here for deleting my answer when it's clearly based on a misunderstanding? \$\endgroup\$ – minnmass Feb 8 '15 at 16:55
  • \$\begingroup\$ @HeyICanChan you got it right, though. I'll edit my answer with the right one, but leave the historical error. \$\endgroup\$ – minnmass Feb 8 '15 at 17:47

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