For the purposes of Two Weapon Fighting, are pistols considered light weapons?

Question

In the entry for firearms in Ultimate Combat, pistols are not explicitly given a classification of light weapon or otherwise, so I'm unsure how the Two Weapon Fighting feat would apply to dual-wielding pistols. The only piece of information I saw was that they can be easily concealed like light weapons.

The closest comparison I can draw is to hand crossbows, which like pistols are exotic weapons capable of being wielded and fired with a single hand. Hand crossbows are considered light weapons, so do the same rules apply to a pistol?

Answer 1

You fire with a -4/-4 for two weapon fighting with pistols because there is no rule anywhere saying that they are anything other than one handed weapons. The comparison for light crossbows is for "firing when prone" and "concealing", which is pretty weak to make a case. You would actually have the same penalty dual wielding light crossbows anyway (see below).

Crossbow, Light: You draw a light crossbow back by pulling a lever. Loading a light crossbow is a move action that provokes attacks of opportunity. Normally, operating a light crossbow requires two hands. However, you can shoot, but not load, a light crossbow with one hand at a –2 penalty on attack rolls. You can shoot a light crossbow with each hand, but you take a penalty on attack rolls as if attacking with two light weapons (see page 202). This penalty is cumulative with the penalty for onehanded firing.

A light crossbow takes a -2 on being fired with one hand. This means you have a -2/-2 with a -2 to each for firing one handed... for -4/-4, the same as if you were just firing a one-handed weapon.

In addition, you are going to have problems with reloading, crossbows or pistols, since you need a hand free to reload them, which makes using a single double barrelled pistol more attractive in this case, since you always have a hand free.

It is worth noting that hand crossbows don't get the -2 for being wielded in one hand, but light crossbows and pistols weigh 4lb, and hand crossbows 2lb.

Answer 2

Strictly speaking, no, they do not.

The Hand Crossbow entry explicitly defines it as a light weapon.

The Pistol entry doesn't say anything about two-weapon fighting.

On the other hand, double-wielding pistols is a classic action trope.

It makes perfect sense to have some pistols count as light weapons.

It doesn't fit for all pistols -- I wouldn't think of a Desert Eagle as a "light" weapon -- but the Beretta 84FS certainly qualifies.

A reasonable rule would be for the Coat Pistol to be a light weapon, with other pistols being one-handed weapons.

Answer 3

No, pistols are one-handed weapons

Firearms have a clear definition regarding their size and hands necessary to use them. From the firearms rules:

Firearm Descriptions

There are two general categories of firearms: early and advanced. Firearms are further divided into one-handed, two-handed, and siege firearms. As the category’s name implies, one-handed firearms need only one hand to wield and shoot. Two-handed firearms work best when you use two-hands while shooting them. Two-handed firearms can be shot with one hand at a –4 penalty on the attack roll.

This is also repeated on the rules about concealing firearms:

Concealing Firearms: Like light weapons and hand crossbows, one-handed firearms are easy to conceal on your person. Some smaller firearms (like the coat pistol) can grant bonuses to conceal a weapon on your person.

This is also implied on this FAQ about the necessary hands and the actual weapon's size:

Inappropriately Sized Firearms: Does this rule (page 136) allow a Medium or smaller creature to use larger firearms of any size?

The text of the rule is, "The size of a firearm never affects how many hands you need to use to shoot it." The intent of that rule was to prevent a Medium character from using a Small rifle as a one-handed pistol; it wasn’t intended to let a Medium character use a Large, Huge, Gargantuan, or Colossal two-handed firearm as a two-handed weapon. Just like with non-firearms, a creature cannot wield a weapon that’s far too big or small for it. Specifically in the case of firearms, a Medium character can’t use a two-handed firearm sized for a Large or larger creature, and a Small character can’t use a two-handed firearm sized for a Medium or larger creature.

Finally, according to Stephen Radney-MacFarland (Paizo's developer), the intent is for small firearms like pistols to be one-handed weapons:

Guns work different. It's not only the truth, it is the goal. They work differently when it comes to proficiency, they work differently when it comes to size, they work differently when it comes to attacks.

There is no such thing as a light firearm, a small rifle is still a two-handed weapon in the hands of a Medium creature (though they do get the penalty for using a weapon not of inappropriate size.

Even with bows, if you reduce the size, they don't become one-handed or light weapons.

Note that this was posted during Ultimate Combat's playtest, and I found nothing official changing this decision from the design team since then.

Answer 4

As has been stated in other answers: no pistols are not light weapons.

The main reason is that pistols in the default setting are similar to the old muskets. They are big and bulky.

To be a light weapon, it should have very little inertia so you can flick it around from target to target with just a wrist or finger flip. So, only very small light handguns would qualify.

If you were using Pathfinder rules in a modern setting, some pistols could be considered light weapons. Though a Desert Eagle or any pistol tricked out with a laser sight or many of the other fun gadgets that can be added would not qualify as a light weapon.

I would go so far as to say that even Wild West era handguns would not be light weapons.

Answer 5

The 3.5 rules set does not classify ranged weapons as light, one-handed or two-handed, yet this classification is required to accurately determine modifiers for two-weapon fighting. Ranged is the only classification, with the exception of this from TWF:

Treat a dart or shuriken as a light weapon when used in this manner, and treat a bolas, javelin, net, or sling as a one-handed weapon

With melee weapons that can be thrown, like a dagger or spear, you get the classification from it's melee counterpart. Sometimes, you can read the description for more information, like with a composite longbow to determine you need two hands to wield it, but it only grants bonus Strength damage as a one-handed weapon. This lack of size classification for ranged weapons was carried over to Pathfinder.

There is this bit of information from Ultimate Combat

Concealing Firearms: Like light weapons and hand crossbows, one-handed firearms are easy to conceal on your person. Some smaller firearms (like the coat pistol) can grant bonuses to conceal a weapon on your person.

While not stating they are light, this does state one-handed firearms are "like light weapons", at least with respect to concealing one.

There is an example monster listing, the pale stranger that uses two pistols.

treats pistols as light weapons for the purposes of determining penalties from two-weapon fighting

However, it is among a list of Supernatural abilities that are are unique to the pale stranger, like the ability to "supernaturally reload". Whether or not their mention of "as light weapons" was intended to be a supernatural benefit, or simply adding an otherwise missing but necessary piece of information is up to the reader.

Answer 6

Pistols don't count as light, even for two weapon fighting. The reason is that they hit touch AC.