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I could have sworn that this rule is SOMEWHERE in the book, but I can't seem to find it. Gunnery, as a skill, is linked to Agility for use. However, when a rigger jumps into the device that has the weapon on it, I remember hearing that they use Logic instead of their Agility.

Because I am horrible at finding this ruling, can someone point me to the page I need in the book? Or confirm that people still use Agility?

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Page 183, GUNNERY section:

Vehicle-mounted weapons are fired using Weapon Skill Gunnery + Agility [Accuracy] for manual operation, like door guns on mounts, or Gunnery + Logic [Accuracy] for remote operated systems.

Note: The strikethrough marks errata.

Since you are a rigger remotely operating the weapon (even if you use a direct connection to connect to the rigger interface) the dice pool is Gunnery + Logic and not Gunnery + Agility.

It also would make absolutely no sense to use Agility if you think about it. After all you are using the vehicle "as body" which means the Agility of your own body is irrelevant.

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  • \$\begingroup\$ Can you show me an example from the book where they clearly define what is considered remote operation of a system? Rigging, in my opinion, is only remote control when you are rigging from a distance. Jumping into a machine means you 'become' the machine...not that you're remote controlling it. \$\endgroup\$ – CrystalBlue Apr 17 '15 at 12:02
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    \$\begingroup\$ @CrystalBlue: That part of the rules unfortunately only mentiones remote operation and manual operation. Since you're certainly not manually operating the weapon (you are in VR), remote operation is the choice that fits better. After all you're operating the device using the matrix. I think it's not exactly the same as remote control (= using the Control device matrix action, which you're not doing when jumped in; Jadac is citing that rule section btw). AFAIK there is no precise definition of remote operation in the book. \$\endgroup\$ – fabian Apr 17 '15 at 12:40
  • \$\begingroup\$ It's not that I don't believe you. I do. I just want to make sure that I'm getting the right information for this and accepting the right answer. SR5 has been needle-in-haystack problematic at this point, so I want to be sure I know what's going on. \$\endgroup\$ – CrystalBlue Apr 17 '15 at 18:14
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Your confusion is well-justified

Vehicles, drones and other devices have four operation modes (p. 265):

  • Manual Control, which requires physical control, like turning a wheel, hitting buttons or operating levers;
  • Remote Control, which happens when you use matrix actions (like Control Device, p238);
  • Rigger Control, which happens when a rigger is jumped-in a device;
  • Autopilot: The device operate autonomously.

Gunnery is linked to Agility when it requires physical manipulation of a mounted gun, as described by the skill (p. 146):

Gunnery (Agility)

Gunnery is used when firing any vehicle-mounted weapon, regardless of how or where the weapon is mounted. This skill extends to manual and sensor-enhanced gunnery.

However, on the rules about using Gunnery (p. 183), it clarifies that remote-operated guns will use Logic instead of Agility:

The rules and modifiers for ranged combat apply to vehicle-mounted weapons. Vehicle-mounted weapons are fired using Gunnery + Agility [Accuracy] for manual operation, like door guns on mounts, or Gunnery + Logic [Accuracy] for remote operated systems.

While drones operating autonomously will use [Weapon] + Pilot [Accuracy/Sensor] when attacking, where [Weapon] is the weapon autosoft installed on the drone, and the limit on the check is either the weapon's Accuracy or the drone Sensor if the drone managed to lock on a target (see Sensor Attacks p184).

Drones attack using their Pilot + [Weapon] Targeting autosoft rating (p. 269), limited by Accuracy.

Which leaves us with the question of how Rigger Control works, which can be seen on the matrix chapter under Drone Combat (p. 270):

Rules for drone combat are the same as those for regular flesh-and-blood characters and can be found in the Combat chapter (p. 158). Specific rules for using Gunnery and Sensors in combat can be found there as well (p. 202).

So, not only it gives you the wrong page (202 is about vehicle combat), but doesn't really clarify how riggers do it differently than manual or remote operation.

Additionally, when we read about Remote Control (p. 265) as I mentioned earlier, it points us to the Control Device matrix action (p. 238), which says:

You perform an action through a device you control (or at least control sufficiently), using your commlink or deck like a remote control or video-game controller. The dice pool of any test you make using this action uses the rating of the appropriate skill and attribute you would use if you were performing the action normally. For example, firing a drone-mounted weapon at a target requires a Gunnery + Agility test

Wait, what? Wasn't agility for manual operation and logic for remote operation? Good job, Catalyst.

This topic is frequently discussed when someone creates a rigger (which is often), and the closest we got to an official answer, is a playtester/moderator saying that the rules are in conflict, and as of today, there is no official errata about this.

Fixing this mess

There is blending between the physical attributes and mental attributes that are specific to riggers and wasn't properly addressed by the writters (like astral combat was). You become the machine, and the control rig essentially intercepts your brain's signals to your meat body and returns the signals from the machine as if they came from your meat body.

Using a Logic or Intuition in place of Agility or Reaction is really how they should have done it, and it makes the most sense considering the flavor given to the matrix, virtual realities and how riggers are described to possess their drones.

So, personally, I would use Agility when the operation requires physical control, either manually, or removelly through a physical controller, such as using your commlink, cyberdeck or RCC using augmented reality. And use Logic whenever your character is in full virtual reality, meaning that your muscles have really no importance in whatever you are doing, and all you need is your brain power.

This interpretation is also suggested by the moderator I mentioned earlier. But in the same topic, he also points out that the german version of the game changed it to Gunnery+Agility:

By the way, page 183's German equivalent has Gunnery+Agility so they cleared that out, and unfortunately in the direction I feared.

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You're mistaken, I'm afraid. Page 238:

You perform an action through a device you control (or at least control sufficiently), using your commlink or deck like a remote control or video-game controller. The dice pool of any test you make using this action uses the rating of the appropriate skill and attribute you would use if you were performing the action normally. For example, firing a drone-mounted weapon at a target requires a Gunnery + Agility test, and using a remote underwater welder calls for a Nautical Mechanic + Logic test.

What you're thinking of is Drones Passively Targeting using their Sensors. Those use Gunnery + Logic. (p.184)

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  • \$\begingroup\$ Got it, thanks! I knew you got extra dice when you rigged, but I was having trouble finding this out in the new book. \$\endgroup\$ – CrystalBlue Apr 10 '15 at 14:50
  • \$\begingroup\$ Gunnery (p183): "Vehicle-mounted weapons are fired using [...] Gunnery + Logic [Accuracy] for remote operated systems" \$\endgroup\$ – András Aug 27 '18 at 22:15
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You use Agility

While the Core book is not really precise on this matter and does not define whether this is remote control (thus Log per p.183), the use of the Control Device matrix action (thus Agi per p.238) or something else, another official source, the Shadowrun Missions Combined FAQ clarifies this:

What attributes do Riggers use for controlling drones? [..] Attribute to use is the normal attribute for the test as found in SR5, pgs. 130-147.

Which points us to the Skills section of the Core book. So Gunnery is used with its normal attribute, which is Agility (per p.146).

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  • \$\begingroup\$ Passive Targeting also writes Gunnery + Logic. Agility makes no sense anyway, you don't use your muscles when you are working in virtual, otherwise every rigger would just buy Muscle Replacement. \$\endgroup\$ – András Aug 27 '18 at 22:33
  • \$\begingroup\$ @András That might be Logical (heh), but this is RAW. You can overrule it at your table (if its not SRM), but that is not what the question is about. \$\endgroup\$ – Szega Aug 27 '18 at 22:38
  • \$\begingroup\$ Taking this FAQ entry as literal will break lots of other rules in the game, such as Drone Perception (p.270) that says you use Perception + Intuition [Sensor] while rigged in. While the skill entry(p.135) says Perception + Intuition [Mental]. The limit was changed. And for Drone Infiltration (p.270) the check is Sneaking + Intuition when jumped in, while the attribute for Sneaking checks is Agility (p.133). This seems like a different context, IMO. \$\endgroup\$ – ShadowKras Aug 28 '18 at 12:25
  • \$\begingroup\$ @ShadowKras I said nothing about the limits here and if you look up the FAQ, the limits are correctly listed. Although it does not directly address perception and stealth. I still feel that this document can be taken into account and feel that the downvotes are uncalled for. \$\endgroup\$ – Szega Aug 28 '18 at 12:58
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    \$\begingroup\$ @Szega I did look at the document, it says: Rigger control: Skill + Attribute [Device|Vehicle Handling + Control Rig Rating], which is contradicting what's written on page 270 on Drone Perception. It doesn't match what's written on Drone Infiltration either. Neither the limit nor the attributes. \$\endgroup\$ – ShadowKras Aug 28 '18 at 13:04

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