In the Demon the Fallen Core Rulebook whenever it talks about a demon's followers, worshippers, thralls, or vessel it always explicitly qualifies them as being mortals. Vampires are not mortals. However, there is extensive canonical material in classic World of Darkness which describes demons either having vampiric followers/worshippers/thralls, forming pacts with vampires, possessing vampires as vessels, or otherwise exploiting vampiric politics for their own gain.

Can a demon use a vampire as a follower/worshipper/thrall or a vessel? If so, can a demon form pacts with and/or gain faith from a vampiric follower/worshipper/thrall? Can a demon gain the benefits of vampiric disciplines by possessing a vampiric vessel?


  • The Earthbound Kupala.
    1. He is revered and worshipped by the Tzimisce (to the extent that their Koldunic Sorcery blood magic discipline is at least partially empowered by their connection to and invocation of Kupala).
    2. He bestows oracular visions related to Gehenna upon the Malkavian prophets Octavio and Anatole.
    3. He is at least partially responsible for influencing the original mages that formed the Tremere to turn themselves into vampires.
  • The Earthbound Nikanuuranu
    1. He formed a pact with the Inconnu's Council of Twelve whereby they offer him a mass human sacrifice along with some of their own blood to maintain a protection spell over their base of operations. It's worth mentioning that the wiki explicitly points out that he does not gain faith from the Twelve themselves, but instead from the mortals that they sacrifice in his name; he does however gain the benefits of each council members vampiric disciplines for the purpose of fulfilling his pact to protect them along with their haven.
  • The Earthbound archdukes (particularly Abaddon and Asmodeus).
    1. They supposedly gain great power by being the focus of the Greek/Roman Empire's religious practices. However, Greece is largely the province of vampiric authority: Crete is controlled by the Toreador methuselah Minos until he is killed and diablerized by his child Helena, and the rest of Greece is later conquered by Alexander the Great in large part due to his mother and the Malkavian methuselah Cybele. Additionally, Rome during this time is ruled by the methuselahs of the Ventrue clan (one of whom, Tiamat, is possessed by the demon Drakonskyr) which form the Eternal Senate which later becomes the Inconnu. Additionally, the Punic Wars between Rome and Carthage in this time period are one of the earliest recorded massive conflicts between the those vampires that would later comprise the Camarilla and those that would later make up the Sabbat.


One commonality that I observed from the above examples is that all of the demons save for Drakonskyr are explicitly called out as being Earthbound demons as opposed to Fallen demons. An answer which uses this observation to conclude that only Earthbound demons can make pacts with and/or gain faith from vampiric followers/worshippers/thralls should provide some additional rationale for why that is so (citing some canonical source is ideal but not strictly necessary) in order to be acceptable, as correlation is not the same as causation.

  • 1
    \$\begingroup\$ Earthbounds have the same rules in that as the fallen in terms of making pacts (they only have a bit different rules for what they can do to their thralls). So if that would be brought up as a reason it should have QUITE a good reasoning there. \$\endgroup\$
    – Thomas E.
    Sep 6, 2015 at 19:10

2 Answers 2


No. As per the Demon Storytellers Companion (p.69):

Because of their undead nature, vampires cannot benefit from pacts of Faith, nor can they be possessed by a demon. A mortal who is bound to a vampire can be enthralled by a demon (and vice versa!), however, and she may be possessed like any other human if her Willpower is low enough.

The latter part says that a Ghoul can be possessed, but it's a bit vague on what happens if it's possible to possess a Revenant. If it is, this likely does not result in them retaining their Disciplines much like how a Demon does not have access to the Spheres of Mages and Edges of Hunters that a Demon possesses. And while Demons can make pacts with Garou, they cannot possess them so there's no potential gain in power here.


If we go by the wordings then I would say: "No".

There are two ways in which a demon can collect Faith from a mortal. Faith can be reaped from a human by forcing him to acknowledge the existence of the demon deep within his soul. A willing mortal can also offer Faith in return for promises of wealth, influence or power.

on page 249 of the demon the fallen PDF I made the key words bold.

Then on the next page:

To become a source of Faith, a mortal must enter into a voluntary agreement with a demon.

Thus if we go straight by the words written then no pacts with vampires do not bring anything to demons and also transforming a vampire into a thrall is not possible.

There is ONE problem though with this. On page 252 is a nice little sidebar about the faith potential for mortals. This states that the default is 2, with the pope and similar ones having 5,... while 0 is quite rare.

Normally those high faith ratings are created through the use of the true faith merit, and here is what I call a problem and I guess is an oversight by the designers of demon the fallen: Vampires also can have the true faith merit. And thus also at least a theoretical faith rating.

Sadly demons the fallen never took this into account (at least nowhere I read). As it is stated a few times in demons it is the soul that empowers the mortals and gives them the ability to generate faith. But with this merit vampires also can do the same things as mortals that have it....thus by all logic they generate faith.

Since the wordings don't take that into any account it is sadly up to the gm there to interpret what the idea behind the rules was. My personal take is that vampires have tarnished souls and thus a faith rating of 0 normally and thus are out of question for pacts and thralling. But that merit would increase their faith rating. Thus theoretically all vampires that have it COULD be valid for pacting and thralling. It just depends on what the gm rules/thinks the intention was......that it is just "mortal" or "all those with souls that have a faith potential".

Sadly demons had quite a few holes and this is one of it, where the rules didn't take all possibilities of the other game lines into account so the intention behind the words must be interpreted and that is up to the gm there sadly.

Edit: As the examples from the OP show that there could be something possible I personally would think that the intention of the rules was really "souls that have faith potential" can form pacts and become thralls (which would mean that vampires at least with the true faith merit can be pacters and thralls......without that merit though I'm not sure as the rules are not too good written there)


You must log in to answer this question.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .