# I think my Eidolon is doing too much damage

So I created a spreadsheet to track all my Eidolon's to hit and damage bonuses because it's just too much otherwise, and for fun I decided to see how much damage I can do. Just buffed by myself and with completely average rolls I came to 243 damage. At level 11. 243!!!

This is my first time playing Pathfinder, I jumped into the campaign at level 9 and wanted to try out Summoner (not Unchained, I'm not playing in Pathfinder Society) since it seemed neat. I spent quite a while designing it and while I tried to optimize it I went more for what would seem fun, and I just wanna make sure I'm not doing absolutely everything wrong.

This is my character sheet, nothing terribly exciting there. And this is my Eidolon's sheet.

During combat I usually start by casting Haste for the party (or begging the bard to cast it) and then casting Enlarge Person on my Eidolon, making him huge size.

Then either pounce or just full round attack for:

• 3 Greatsword attacks (1 full BAB, 1 Haste, 1 BAB-5) for 4d6 (2d6 base, 3d6 large, 4d6 huge) + 15 (strength mod) + 3 (+3 greatsword+ 9 (power attack)

• 1 bite attack for 2d6 (1d6 base, 1d8 large, 2d6 huge) + 5 (.5 str mod due to secondary) + 3 (secondary, power attack)

• 4 claw attacks for 2d6 each (1d4 base, 1d6 large, 1d8 improved damage evolution, 2d6 huge) + 5 (.5 str mod) + 3 (secondary, power attack) + 2 (greater magic fang which I cast at the morning and keep going all day)

• Assuming all claws hit I also do 2 rends (Eidolon's rend ability doesn't specify it can only do it once a turn) for 2d6 (from claws) + 15 (1.5 * str mod) + 3 (power attack, now I'm not sure whether this should be half, normal, or 1.5 * the power attack bonus).

Any input and corrections are appreciated. Also if I do end up doing way more damage than the rest of the party, what should I consider doing? While I love being overpowered it might annoy the rest of the players/the DM.

• Bigger question: is your Eidolon taking up the spotlight, or sitting there being a DPS/HP distraction for the hostiles while the party does cool and interesting things? (Much of that depends on how combat-focused your campaign is, but I suspect that should be discussed in your question...) – Shalvenay Dec 3 '15 at 4:19
• @Shalvenay We've only done 3 sessions since I joined (around 6 hours every second saturday) and I joined just before a boss fight and we've been clearing the dungeon since so it's been all combat. I honestly don't know how to gauge whether I take up the spotlight yet or not, there's a barbarian in the party that does a pretty good amount of damage as well, by good I mean in the 50s, not in the 100-200s depending on how many attacks hit. I try to do my turn quickly to not take time (hence the spreadsheet) and not boast too much about oneshotting monsters. – hugglesthemerciless Dec 3 '15 at 4:25
• Using greater magic fang on all of your Eidolon's Claw attacks requires you to use 4 3rd level spell slots, which is all of them (not counting bonus spells). – MrLemon Dec 3 '15 at 12:31
• Are you sure you can make claw attacks with the same limbs that make weapon attacks? I count 4 limbs on your eidolon, and two of those are wielding your greatsword. I always thought that you couldn't make more than one non-iterative attack with a particular limb. – DuckTapeAl Dec 3 '15 at 16:34
• @topquark the evolutions are all listed on the eidolons character sheet in the second column of feats & special abilities – hugglesthemerciless Dec 3 '15 at 17:46

# When that eidolon is ready for battle, it's probably going to win

Under laboratory conditions, that quadruped eidolon's an asskicker. But to turn it into that, here're the resources that must be expended.

• That eidolon's wielding a +3 Large greatsword, a magic weapon worth at least 18,350 gp, about a fourth of a level 11 character's assumed 82,000 gp.

• Because of its 11-hour duration, four times per day the summoner casts on the eidolon the spell greater magic fang. A typical level 11 summoner can cast 4-5 3rd-level spells per day. In other words, for half the day the eidolon's affected by this spell, but for the whole day the summoner has nearly exhausted his 3rd-level spell slots.

• Because of its 1 round/level duration, once per encounter someone casts the spell haste. Although haste is only a 2nd-level summoner spell, a level 11 summoner will still likely only be able to cast the spell 4-5 times per day. The spell haste is serious a force multiplier... if the party has several characters who fight better when making full attacks. If the reason to cast the spell is, essentially, only to buff the eidolon, I can understand the bard's reluctance, especially since haste is a 3rd-level spell for a bard, limiting the level 11 bard to 4-5 castings per day of his second-highest-level spell.

Also, this takes a standard action to cast. Casting a haste spell that buffs but 1 ally means the caster spent a standard action giving 1 ally 1 extra attack if the ally makes a full attack. That's usually a poor use of resources when a lone spell can end the encounter.

• Because of its 1 min./level duration, once per encounter the summoner casts the spell enlarge person so the eidolon can benefit because of the eidolon's special ability share spells. While the summoner has plenty of 1st-level spells to throw around, this is actually (ahem) a huge deal because of the enlarge spell's Casting Time: 1 round:

When you begin a spell that takes 1 round or longer to cast, you must continue the concentration from the current round to just before your turn in the next round (at least). If you lose concentration before the casting is complete, you lose the spell.

Attacks against the summoner while the summoner's casting enlarge person force the summoner to make concentration checks (based on this sheet, that's 1d20 + 15 versus DC 11 + damage dealt); failure means the spell is lost. This makes casting the spell risky, and folks really should be targeting the summoner while he's casting it. (And it's not like the eidolon can instead employ potions of enlarge person; the spell can't normally target an outsider.)

In other words, the summoner's committed about 25% of his wealth, most of his 3rd-level spells, a standard action (or an ally's standard action) and a 2nd-level (or 3rd-level) spell, and a 1-round action and a 1st-level spell to making the eidolon into this fantastic killing machine.

The summoner is getting what he paid for.

# Confirming the eidolon's attacks

The only correction I'd make is that rend probably shouldn't benefit from Power Attack; rend is a special attack not a an actual, for-reals attack. It'd be like getting the bonuses for Power Attack on a disarm or a breath weapon or something. But if the GM's running the monsters that way, too, roll with it. Nonetheless, the numbers below reflect a rend without the benefit of the feat Power Attack.

Here's my math based on the sheet supplied for that hasted, enlarged eidolon.

• +3 Large greatsword: +9 base attack bonus +10 Str +1 bonus via the spell haste +3 enhancement bonus via the +3 greatsword −2 penalty via Huge size −3 penalty via the feat Power Attack equals +18/+18/+13 melee (4d6 +15 Str +3 enhancement bonus via the +3 greatsword +9 bonus via the feat Power Attack using a 2-handed weapon equals 4d6+27/17-20). If all three hit, that's an average of 123 points of damage.
• Claws: +9 base attack bonus +10 Str +1 bonus via the spell haste +2 enhancement bonus via the spell greater magic fang −2 penalty via Huge size −2 penalty via the feat Multiattack −3 penalty via the feat Power Attack equals +15/+15/+15/+15 melee (2d6 +5 Str +3 bonus via the feat Power Attack +2 enhancement bonus via the spell greater magic fang equals 2d6+10 plus rend (2 claws: 2d6+15)) If all four hit, that's an average of 112 points of damage.
• Bite: +9 base attack bonus +10 Str +1 bonus via the spell haste −2 penalty via Huge size −2 penalty via the feat Multiattack −3 penalty via the feat Power Attack equals +13 melee (2d6 +5 Str +3 bonus via the feat Power Attack equals 2d6+8). If that hits, it's an average of 15 points of damage.

My total is a nice, clean 250 points of damage. Officially, a CR 11 monster has, on average, hp 145 and AC 25. So even if the eidolon doesn't hit with everything, it'll probably still kill (and, likely, overkill) the typical level-appropriate foe. However, as it can be as late as the third round of combat before the eidolon is in total buffed-up mode, the battle may be half over, and the eidolon's just mopping up.

• Thank you. I usually reserve Haste and Enlarge person for large encounters, which I should've specified. Also I wasn't aware about the 1 round vs standard action difference in enlarge person, I'll have to make note of that for the future. Do I have to cast greater magic fang for every single claw attack or does it apply to each claw attack? If I have to apply it to every claw attack I might reserve it for boss fights or overcoming DR in that case. This FAQ states that power attack is used for rend. – hugglesthemerciless Dec 3 '15 at 17:54
• @hugglesthemerciless You're welcome. That summoner can cast greater magic fang two ways, either on one weapon (for the +2) or all weapons (for the +1). Each claw should probably be counted individually unless your DM says otherwise. The enlarge person thing is easily overlooked (likewise the casting time of lesser restoration). I couldn't find rend in that linked FAQ. – Hey I Can Chan Dec 3 '15 at 18:06
• Okay I'll have to change that then, that's 4 less damage. And somebody else mentions rend should only happens once per turn, they misprinted that, but maybe my DM will agree I should go by RAW. And that's my bad, I linked the wrong FAQ, this one should be the correct one – hugglesthemerciless Dec 3 '15 at 22:23
• @hugglesthemerciless At this point, the damage is (obviously) not the concern. That is, that now-missing +1 drops the eidolon's claws to it now needing an above average attack roll against most level-appropriate monsters, and that, in turn, will drop you're DPR more than just by 4. And, holy cats, does that Pathfinder Society FAQ jump through enough hoops to reach that conclusion! That's really convoluted, and I'd definitely ask the GM instead of going by that. – Hey I Can Chan Dec 3 '15 at 22:39
• As long as I can show that my stats are legit and I'm not breaking rules in case my GM asks then I'm happy :) I don't care to be hyperoptimized I was just worried I'm hitting far too hard and wanted to check whether I'm breaking any rules or not, I appreciate you checking :) – hugglesthemerciless Dec 3 '15 at 22:45

First, note @MrLemon's comment, which points out that you'll have no 3rd-level slots if you greater magic fang all of your Eidolon's claw attacks. That means you aren't casting haste yourself if you want that extra +2 to attack and damage. That shaves off either an attack, or +2 damage per claw (since you can still just greater magic fang in the other mode to give +1 to all claws).

Second, one of the designers allegedly said during a playtest that eidolon's rend being different from the universal monster rules was an oversight. Reference: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ro3f?Yet-another-Summonereidolon-question#8. That shaves off 2d6 + 15 + (power attack).

Third, for rend and power attack, I can't find a definitive reference. But there is a large amount of consensus that rend is worded as extra damage to an attack (similarly to the way that freezing weapons add damage), and is not "melee damage" for the purposes of power attack. If you take that for granted, there goes the power attack bonus for rend.

Later edit: There appears to be a Pathfinder Society ruling on this (here, but strangely, even though that's the link to the material, it actually takes you to the Pathfinder FAQ, not the society one, so it'll probably have to be Googled for anyone reading this later):

How does Rend work with power Attack in Pathfinder Society Organized Play?

Damage is rolled once per attack. If it's a longsword attack, the roll is 1d8, to which you add other modifiers, like Strength bonus, Weapon Specialization, and enhancement bonuses. If it's a short sword with sneak attack, the damage roll is 1d6+1d6 sneak attack. It's two dice, but it's a single damage roll. If it's a confirmed critical hit on a sneak attack while employing Power Attack with a flaming greataxe, the single damage roll is 3d12+3xStrength+2xPower Attack+1d6 sneak attack+1d6 fire. A full attack, you add Power Attack once to each attack that hits, even if each of those attacks also has other effects added to its final damage value. The rend universal monster rule grants the creature an additional damage roll after successfully making two different attacks. Since it's a melee damage roll from a different attack than the first two, it gets Power Attack as well. Thus, a GM applying Power Attack to a rend damage roll is operating completely within the rules.

Fourth, don't forget to account for base attack bonus. A fighter at the same level will have the benefits of a full BaB, weapon focus, weapon training, and all the glorious things that come with loads of combat feats. A relatively quick mockup of a fighter using about half the gp budget for items, and assuming (n+1)/2 hp, gives me this

# con 16 st 18 (20 with level bonuses, 22 with belt) dx 16
# HP 13 + 8*11 = 101
# AC adamantine full plate + 1, amulet natural armor + 2, ring of protection +2  = 10 + 9 + 1 + 3 + 2 + 2 = 28
# greatsword +3
# belt str +2
# BaB 11/6/1
# 6 fighter feats, 6 reg feats
# weapon training 2 (heavy blades): +2/+2
# 1,2: weapon focus, weapon specialization (greatsword): +1/+2
# 3: power attack (-3/+6 (9 with 2-hander))
# 4: improved critical (greatsword)
# 5: cleave
# 6: dodge
# <six more feats to work with>
# Attacks (greatsword): 11 + 6 + 3 + 1 + 2 = +23/+18/+13 (1d10+15 17-20/x2)
# Attacks (greatsword, PA): +20/+15/+10 (1d10+23 17-20/x2)
# Attacks (greatsword, *enlarged*, *hasted*): above + 1 (haste) + 1 (str bonus from enlarge) - 1 (size penalty) = +24/+19/+14/+24 (2d6 + 15 17-20/x2)
# Attacks (greatsword, PA, *enlarged*, *hasted*): +21/+16/+11/+21 (2d6 + 24 17-20/x2)


Fully buffed, hit with every attack, do average damage, and it's (7 + 24) * 4 = 124 damage. A fifth of those are critical threats, and again assume we confirm all criticals (a lot of assumptions, but no different than assuming your eidolon hits every attack), and we effectively add another 40% for ~173 damage. The higher BaB means the fighter will achieve a higher percentage of this against a given opponents, so the numbers are very comparable to your (revised) eidolon, with a slightly better AC and HP to boot. And I'm sure you haven't forgotten that you are a target if someone wants to remove the eidolon from the conflict, and you're a bit squishier.

There's a lot more room in that fighter--I didn't bother choosing a race (just assumed it was something with +2 str), I didn't have time to go fully into the rabbit hole with feats, and using more of the gp budget has a lot of room to improve these numbers across the board (the total for above was only 48k out of 82k from here, which leaves plenty of room for, say, a +4 or +6 strength belt, or more weapon bonuses), but this should give the idea. I think the moral of the story is that the eidolon can definitely be built to unleash a ton of damage, and while it may edge into pretty high territory, it's not necessarily completely breaking the game. As long as you're not being a jerk about it, you should be fine.

• Thanks, appreciate you checking. I didn't know I have to cast greater magic fang for each claw, I assumed it worked similarly to improve natural attack by buffing all claws. According to this FAQ Power attack is applied to rend damage, but it still lowers overall damage by only getting 1 rend, no matter how many claws hit. – hugglesthemerciless Dec 3 '15 at 17:59
• Oh, glad there's an official FAQ for that, I poked around in the forums and didn't come to anything official – A. Wilson Dec 4 '15 at 14:01
• Hmm, the FAQ you linked seems to talk about ability modifier stacking, not Power Attack. Can you find the one that talks about rend? – A. Wilson Dec 4 '15 at 14:03
• Nevermind, I was able to find it by searching for FAQ rend pathfinder. Strangely enough, it gives the same link, but the page is completely different. My mind is kind of blown. (the difference is that one is pathfinder society, and the other just pathfinder, but there's zero difference in the URL to get to them) – A. Wilson Dec 4 '15 at 14:05
• Agreed, it is rather strange. What I'm wondering about is whether I'd use the normal power attack modifier or the 2handed since rend uses 1.5 strength – hugglesthemerciless Dec 4 '15 at 15:46

Did you take into account also that your eidolon is limited by number of attacks. At 11th level it can only have 5 maximum number of attacks per round

• That limit only applies to Natural Attacks - "This indicates the maximum number of natural attacks that the eidolon is allowed to possess at the given level." – Phlyk Dec 22 '16 at 8:22