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Spell Perfection

Pick one spell which you have the ability to cast. Whenever you cast that spell you may apply any one metamagic feat you have to that spell without affecting its level or casting time, as long as the total modified level of the spell does not use a spell slot above 9th level.

Echoing Spell

When you cast an echoing spell, it does not disappear entirely from memory, and you can cast it one additional time during that day. No effect that allows you to reprepare or recast a spell can affect the echoed spell.

Based on these, is the following sequence of actions legal?

Pick a 5th level spell as your perfected spell Prep and cast the perfected spell, applying the Echoing Spell metamagic feat to it. The spell is still available to cast.

Here is what I'm not sure about.

Cast the echoed spell, applying a second, different metamagic feat to the echoed spell. Specifically, I want to know if I could apply the Quicken Spell metamagic feat so that I could get two castings of my perfected spell in one round with only one spell slot.

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If i understand your plan correctly, then yes.

  • Standard Action : level 5 perfected spell + echoing spell

  • Swift Action : level 5 perfected spell + quicken

The second casting would, of course, consume the slot.

Also, you may want to keep in mind (and somewhat unrelated) the casting time of the spell in question.

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  • \$\begingroup\$ What causes the second spell to lose track of the fact that it is echoing? It is still the same spell is it not? \$\endgroup\$
    – Nick Clayton
    Mar 23, 2016 at 21:12
  • \$\begingroup\$ I have some notes that I put in chat. I don't know if there is a hard and fast rule for this sort of thing. The problem is that there isn't much to be found on the interaction between these two feats. However, I would let this combo go as a DM. Spell perfection only effects a single spell. \$\endgroup\$
    – BaseHobo
    Mar 23, 2016 at 22:18
  • \$\begingroup\$ The echoing spell returns without the echoing metamagic, so it can only be cast again oonce more. @Nickmagus \$\endgroup\$
    – Mindwin Remember Monica
    Oct 15, 2017 at 0:40
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You can't have a 5th level spell that is both Quickened and Echoing as the spell's effective level would be 12 (5+3+4) violating the limits on total modified level of the spell. Echoing allows you to cast the same spell again as an "echoed" spell thus the echoed spell remembers that it was once echoing.

Additionally you likely (though this is less strictly supported) cannot add a free metamagic feat to the second casting regardless of spell level as you are casting the same spell one additional time. This means that the second casting of the spell is Echoing (as it is the same spell as the first casting) and echoing is likely considered the free metamagic that you get from spell perfection.

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  • \$\begingroup\$ Based on the question, I don't think the spell would be an Echoing spell on the second casting, just Quickened. Caster casts spell as Echoing, gets the spell back, then casts the same spell as Quickened. \$\endgroup\$
    – LegendaryDude
    Mar 23, 2016 at 20:42
  • \$\begingroup\$ @LegendaryDude echoing reads "When you cast an echoing spell, it does not disappear entirely from memory, and you can cast it one additional time during that day." This allows you to cast the Echoing spell one additional time. Nowhere does it say that the additional cast loses Echoing (or any other metamagic applied to it) \$\endgroup\$
    – Nick Clayton
    Mar 23, 2016 at 20:48
  • \$\begingroup\$ So you're suggesting that the spell retains it's Echoing Spell metamagic, allowing you to cast it infinitely? \$\endgroup\$
    – LegendaryDude
    Mar 23, 2016 at 20:49
  • \$\begingroup\$ @LegendaryDude no reading of the rules could imply that as "No effect that allows you to reprepare or recast a spell can affect the echoed spell." The spell remembers that it is echoing but is not repeated as it cannot be reprepared or recast. \$\endgroup\$
    – Nick Clayton
    Mar 23, 2016 at 20:52
  • \$\begingroup\$ If "no effect that allows you to reprepare or recast a spell can affect the echoed spell" and Echoing Spell is an effect that "allows you to ... recast a spell" how does Echoing Spell ever work? What is an echoed spell? Is the spell only echoed after it has first been cast? Sorry, guess my problem is with that awful wording in the metamagic description. \$\endgroup\$
    – LegendaryDude
    Mar 23, 2016 at 20:56

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