# Where is chart for baseline physical ability scores by size?

I know the question I am asking is akin to flogging a dead horse, yes the question is about size changing and if there is a chart for ability scores based on size. Yes I know there are questions which relate to this already.

However I have spent time doing more research on this after a friend and fellow player asked about another spell. I focused on spells which kept you humanoid so that you could keep your equipment, but for clarifications I have branched out very widely.

So, while we are all familiar with the basics, for a proper question I will be restating everything that I can for clarity.

Now, there are two types of spells which can change size, transmutation and transmutation (polymorph). For the spells I have specified which ones state flat out that multiple size changes do not stack, because not all of them do. However transmutation (polymorph) states that only one polymorph effect can be in place on you.

Enlarge Person Transmutation Arcane Spell Casting 1, Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack.

This spell causes instant growth of a humanoid creature, doubling its height and multiplying its weight by 8. This increase changes the creature's size category to the next larger one. The target gains a +2 size bonus to Strength, a -2 size penalty to Dexterity (to a minimum of 1), and a -1 penalty on attack rolls and AC due to its increased size.

Righteous Might Transmutation Cleric 5, Magical effects that increase size do not stack.

Your height immediately doubles, and your weight increases by a factor of eight. This increase changes your size category to the next larger one. You gain a +4 size bonus to Strength and Constitution and take a -2 penalty to your Dexterity. You gain a +2 enhancement bonus to your natural armor.

Legendary Proportions Transmutation Arcane 7

Your target grows to legendary proportions, increasing in size by one category. The creature’s height doubles and its weight increases by a factor of 8. The target gains a +6 size bonus to its Strength score and a +4 size bonus to its Constitution score. It gains a +6 size bonus to its natural armor, and DR 10/adamantine.

Divine Vessel Transmutation Oracle 8, Magical effects that increase size do not stack.

Your size increases by one category, your height doubles, and your weight increases by a factor of eight. Your features shift into those of a cold and alien being of logic, a creature of primal chaos, an angelic presence, or a fiendish monster, as chosen by you. You gain a +6 size bonus to Strength and Constitution, a +3 natural armor bonus, darkvision 60 ft., and Spell Resistance of 12 + your caster level. These modifiers replace the normal modifiers for increasing your size.

Giant Form Polymorph Arcane 7

When you cast this spell you can assume the form of any Large humanoid creature of the giant subtype . Once you assume your new form, you gain the following abilities: +6 size bonus to Strength, -2 penalty to Dexterity, +4 size bonus to Constitution, +4 natural armor bonus

This spell functions as giant form I except that it also allows you to assume the form of any Huge creature of the giant subtype . You gain the following abilities: +8 size bonus to Strength, -2 penalty to Dexterity, +6 size bonus to Constitution, +6 natural armor bonus, +10 foot enhancement bonus to your speed

Monstrous Physique Polymorph Arcane 3/4/5

• Diminutive monstrous humanoid: you gain a +6 size bonus to your Dexterity, a –4 penalty to your Strength, and a +1 natural armor bonus.
• Tiny monstrous humanoid: you gain a +4 size bonus to your Dexterity, a –2 penalty to your Strength, and a +1 natural armor bonus.
• Small monstrous humanoid: you gain a +2 size bonus to your Dexterity and a +1 natural armor bonus.
• Medium monstrous humanoid: you gain a +2 size bonus to your Strength and a +2 natural armor bonus.
• Large monstrous humanoid: you gain a +4 size bonus to your Strength, a –2 penalty to your Dexterity, and a +4 natural armor bonus.
• Huge monstrous humanoid: you gain a +6 size bonus to your Strength, a –4 penalty to your Dexterity, and a +6 natural armor bonus.

Frightful Aspect Polymorph Cleric/Arcane 8

You become a larger, awful version of yourself. You grow to size Large, and take on features that horrify your enemies. You gain the following abilities: a +6 size bonus to Strength, a +4 size bonus to Constitution, a +6 natural armor bonus, DR 10/magic, and spell resistance equal to 10 + half your caster level.

Now that the spells are out of the way lets look at the common characteristics they give based on size. For simplicity sake assume the original creature is medium otherwise we would need to consult the polymorph table which deals with changing ability scores when you are not medium (which for some reason is only for polymorph and not the whole transmutation).

• Enlarge person (large) +2 str -2 Dex
• Righteous Might (large) +4 Str +4 Con -2 Dex
• Legendary Proportions (large) +6 Str +4 Con
• Divine Vessel (large) +6 Str +6 Con
• Giant Form (Large) +6 Str +4 Con -2 Dex
• Monstrous Physique (Large) +4 Str -2 Dex
• Frightful Aspect (large) +6 Str +4 Con

• Giant Form (Huge) +8 Str +6 Con -2 Dex

• Monstrous Physique (Huge) +6 Str -4 Dex

So from the break down its clear that none of the spells agree on what the size bonus is for changing size, so this supports that its an aspect of the spell and not from a chart. Yet there is enough comments scattered around that suggest there is. Its also odd how all the bonuses are typed as size, but every penalty is just a untyped penalty, except for enlarge person who does.

These modifiers replace the normal modifiers for increasing your size.

Then there is the chart from the polymorph subschool itself, which does suggest there is something.

If a polymorph spell is cast on a creature that is smaller than Small or larger than Medium, first adjust its ability scores to one of these two sizes using the following table before applying the bonuses granted by the polymorph spell.

The table of space and reach or the glossary which pretty much tells you everything there is about the different information on sizes, does not have anything listed for ability scores.

Im now getting to the point where I really branch out.

When creating a dire creature

The dire creature does not gain the benefits or penalties to ability scores that arise from increased size.

Under the Glossary for bonus, it mentions that it can affect ability scores

A size bonus or penalty is derived from a creature's size category. Size modifiers of different kinds apply to armor class, attack rolls, Stealth checks, combat maneuver checks, and various other checks.

Monster creation has base values directly related to size.

A creature's size sets a baseline for its physical ability scores and its natural weapon damage (as noted in the Natural Attacks description in the Universal Monster Rules).

make any modifications to its ability scores based on an increase in size, as noted on Table: Size Changes.

The druid wild shape ability uses beast shape which also has a wide range of sizes that are listed with changing values.

Even the Summoners Eidolon get bonuses when changing size. However these bonuses are too good to be applied to normal characters.

So is there suppose to be a base size ability score chart as is referenced by some of the things, or why are they referencing something that does not exist? Granted if such a chart did exist, in most cases it would be overruled by the spell which changed your size.

Better wording for my question is: If a creature's the subject of a non-polymorph spell that changes its size, does the creature gain the standard modifiers for the size change as per Table: Size Changes in addition to the modifiers the spell describes?

• I don't want to dumb this down—your research is too good to waste—, but does the question come down to Where is chart for baseline physical ability scores by size? There's a lot here, so am I just not seeing another question? (O, hey, look at that title. ;-)) – Hey I Can Chan Jul 10 '16 at 18:57
• I spent 5 hours at least searching for this information – Fering Jul 10 '16 at 19:10
• I'm not sure how many folks are going to have the patience to get through 1,200 words to reach a question that ends up seeming (ahem) largely unrelated. Is there a way to clarify this by leading with the section beginning Monster creation has base values directly related to size? – Hey I Can Chan Jul 10 '16 at 21:21
• Dont care about monsters, want a chart for PC's – Fering Jul 10 '16 at 22:40
• Okay. I think I get it; I misunderstood the purpose. Is the question If a creature's the subject of a non-polymorph spell that changes its size, does the creature gain the standard modifiers for the size change as per Table: Size Changes in addition to the modifiers the spell describes? Is that close? – Hey I Can Chan Jul 10 '16 at 22:50

There are no default ability modifiers due to size.

Effects that change your size all specify what they do to your ability scores. These modifiers neither replace nor stack with some default size modifiers, because the default is nothing.

Of the effects you quote, Divine Vessel is the only one that incorrectly refers to a non-existent default. All of the others make sense as-is.

• You correctly note that the table of space and reach lists all of the effects of size, and ability scores aren't on the list.

• The table in the polymorph subschool doesn't imply the existence of default modifiers. On the contrary, if there were a default, then the polymorph subschool could have just said "you lose the modifiers from your previous size category" instead of including its own table.

• Table 2-2: Size Changes (Bestiary 1 p.296), applies only to monster advancement by HD. While I can't cite a non-reference, the fact that it was printed only in the Bestiary should be a big hint that it wasn't intended to apply to PCs.

• Monster creation's "baseline" refers to "Table 1-3: Size" (Bestiary 1 p.292), which is only a guideline for custom monster species. It doesn't apply to PCs, nor to anything that changes the size of an existing creature.

• Dire creature template: This is a reminder that monster advancement by template is not the same thing as monster advancement by HD, and doesn't inherit the size change rules from advancement by HD.

• "It's also odd how all the bonuses are typed as size, but every penalty is just a untyped penalty, except for enlarge person who does."
From the glossary:

Penalties do not have a type and most penalties stack with one another.

(Actually this quote isn't quite true; there is such a thing as "morale penalties". Not because of stacking, but rather because someone can be immune to morale.)
Compare to 3.5e, which has rules for typed penalties but rarely uses them. Afaict, when the PF editors imported 3.5e content, they codified the generalization that most penalties are untyped, but failed to update enlarge person.

It sounds like you are asking for table "5-1: Creature Size, Ability Scores, and Damage" on page 296 in Monsters Manual 3.5

I don't have the Pathfinder books available, so I can't check for the existence of the equivalent table there. It should exist in some shape or form in the chapter on making your own monsters, although I remember that it is missing in some versions of D&D. I tend to use DMG 3.5 when I need that table (Homebrewers best friend)

• I am specifically looking for the pathfinder chart. A 3.5 resource while likely fairly accurate doesnt count. After all, some GM's are very strict about where the information comes from. – Fering Jul 13 '16 at 15:48