In my quest of learning about Dragonlance setting I came upon an adventure module set in D&D 2nd edition and now I am curious about what the previous editions were all about. I have tried to look for information on the google, but failed to find anything worth mentioning.

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  • \$\begingroup\$ There were significant changes in the systems. Mainly the switch to the d20 system and removing Thac0. \$\endgroup\$ – Mike Wills Jun 17 '11 at 18:36
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    \$\begingroup\$ There were more than significant changes in the system. There were also emergent changes in what playstyles the system was suited to, due to how it highlighted different gameplay aspects than AD&D. \$\endgroup\$ – SevenSidedDie Jun 18 '11 at 15:11
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    \$\begingroup\$ So far I've seen answers of the "I grew up with WotC D&D and it's better" and "I grew up with TSR D&D and it's better" sorts. I really hope that this Q eventually attracts a good, neutral answer that addresses the differences without taking one of those sides, but I'm not too optimistic. \$\endgroup\$ – SevenSidedDie Jun 19 '11 at 16:58

Class Restrictions:
2E: has restrictions based upon race, alignment and stats.
3E: has only restrictions based upon alignment and stats.

Core Rules Classes:
2E: has no NPC classes in core rules; normal people are 0-level. Fighter, Ranger, Paladin, Thief, Bard, Cleric, Druid, Magic User, Specialist Mage. Prestige classes do not exist.
3E: Fighter, Ranger, Paladin, Bard, Rogue, Wizard, Sorcerer, Cleric, Druid, Barbarian, Specialist Mage, plus NPC classes Warrior, Adept, Noble, Commoner, plus several prestige classes.

Maximum Levels
2E: all classes presented to Level 20; higher levels are in Campaign Option: High Level Campaigning (up to 30 for class levels, while 31-40 are Divine HD, gained through questing for a patron deity or similar Power who sponsors the character to become a Demigod at lvl 40, at which point the character becomes an NPC). Some races limit some classes to lower levels (in some combinations, as low as 8th level); high attributes can raise limits by up to 4 above listed.
3E: All classes presented to level 20; Epic Level Handbook extends this to level 40. No racial limits to levels.

Hit Points and Hit Dice:
2E: hit dice cap at 9 HD for warriors and priests, and 10 HD for Rogues and Wizards, and switch to HP per level above that (d4 +1/level, d6 &d8 = +2/level, D10 & d12 = +3/level).
3E: Hit dice cap at 20HD, keep best 20 HD. (See Epic Level Sourcebook)

To Hit & AC:
2E: 1d20 Roll high; THAC0 - roll is AC hit. Naked AC is 10, goes down with armor.
3E: 1d20 roll high; die roll + mods is AC hit. Naked AC is 10, goes up with armor.

Saving Throws:
2E: 5 categories , 1d20+stat mod. Roll high vs TN set by class and level. Save categories: Paralyzation/Poison/Death-Magic, Rod/Staff/Wand, Petrification/Polymorph, Breath Weapon, Spell
3E: 3 categories (Will, Fortitude, Reflex), 1d20+(level based modifier)+(Stat mod) vs TN by situation.

Attributes & Attribute modifiers:
2E: asymmetric table, wide flat spot. Lots of different modifier and stat columns. Attributes raised only by magic.
3E: uniform symmetric table, no flat spot. Only a few additional information columns. Attributes raised by sufficient levels.

2E: proficiencies in two classes: weapon and non-weapon. Weapon Proficiency slots provide access to weapons in either narrow types or moderately narrow classes, and specialization adding damage and extra attacks by character level (Some optional rules allow purchasing of normally disallowed weapons for 2 or 3 points class depending, but Ethos restrictions still apply (clerics and druids loss all class-based spell-casting and special abilities while using items disallowed by their ethos and for up to 24 hours after)). Non-Weapon usually provide a stat check (1d20 for star or lower) to succeed, and take a variable number of slots based upon class and NWP; additional slots spent raise target number by 1 each. No armor proficiencies; armor use class limited. 1 additional slot gained per 3 (4 for rogues) levels gained.
3E: feats provide access to groups of weapons, groups of armor types, special maneuvers. 3E skills are based on 1d20+Skilllevel+stat mod; this cuts the effect of stats in half vs 2E; class skills cost 1 skill point per level, and non-class 2 SP; classes range from 2SP/level to 8 SP/level. Lots more skill points than NWP slots in 2E, as well, even for fighters. (classes with Ethos restrictions such as Druids, or certain prestige classes lose all spell casting and special abilities when using disallowed weapons/armor for up to 24 hours afterward. Generic Clerics no longer have ethos requirements regarding weapons, unless a chosen patron specifically says otherwise).

Magic and Spells:
2E: No 0-Level spells. Divine ( Cleric, Druid, Paladin, and Ranger) spells rated in levels 1-7 (Up to 8th, called Quest (functionally the same as 10th level) if using the High Level Rules). Wizard Spells (Mage, Specialist, & bard) rated in levels 1-9 (Up to 10 if using the High Level rules). no real separate class lists. Some classes don't have access to all spell levels Rangers levels 1-3, Paladins 1-4, and bards 1-6 (up to 8th if using the High Level Rules). Tome of Magic introduces extra wizard specialists. Clerics have access to subsets (called spheres) based upon deity. Meta-magic are spells that are cast and modifies the next spell cast in some way.
3E: All spells limited by class, most lists either levels 0-4 or 0-9. Clerical spheres scrapped and replaced with domains, which are similar but have much less effect on the clerics general spell access instead changing the way certain spells or abilities function and adding a new slot per spell level for domain-specific spells, some of which are unique to a domain or borrowed from other classes. Meta-magic are feats that increase the slot used of a spell to modify it's effect in someway.

Experience and Experience Points:
2E: Earned by HD of monster defeated, or by specific class based action lists at fixed rates. Separate XP track per class. Separate XP to level table by class: cheapest is thief, then bard, then cleric and druid, then fighter, then ranger and paladin, then mages.
3E: Earned by ratio of threat level of encounter to level of party. Single XP track per character determining character level; class levels total to character level. All classes use same XP to level table.

2E: limited strongly by race. HP average of two classes' HP. XP divided equally by class save for class awards. Effective character level roughly highest of class' levels + 1/2 each of lower class' levels. Humans dual-class instead but have higher stat requirements in addition to meeting all other class requirements, can no longer progress as previous classes, are unable to use their previous class abilities until their new class reaches 1 level higher then their previous highest class, and can only have 1 class from each class pool.
3E: no racial restrictions. No class restrictions directly. Character Level is sum of class levels.

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  • \$\begingroup\$ @chad It's been covered in the details. \$\endgroup\$ – aramis Jan 20 '12 at 17:40
  • \$\begingroup\$ I'm confused by the first section. You say 3e classes have restrictions based only on alignment and stats, but base classes have no stat restrictions, and prestige classes can have racial (and all sorts of other) restrictions... \$\endgroup\$ – KRyan Feb 16 '13 at 16:14
  • \$\begingroup\$ Base classes technically don't, but a Prime caster with less then 10 in their casting stat is pretty much useless, since they can't cast spells at all. Interestingly, in 2nd edition, mages with 9 int could cast up to 4th level, 5th at 10-11, up to 18-19 for 9th, requiring 20+ int to gain their 10th level slots. Clerics/druids on the other hand got extra spells per day at certain levels for having 12+ wisdom, but got their normal full casting regardless of wisdom though having less then 13 had a failure chance (5% at 12, and going up as wisdom dropped, though 9 was the minimum requirement) \$\endgroup\$ – ZanathKariashi Feb 24 '13 at 22:55
  • \$\begingroup\$ Prestige Classes do, but aren't technically part of the core game. Even the ones in the DMG are listed as completely optional content. They're much like the Kits of 2nd edition except they're a separate class, taken later when certain requirements are met, rather then having a list of disadvantages to compensate for their powers and taken at creation. (unless otherwise noted, kits couldn't be taken after creation and no character could have more then 1 kit). \$\endgroup\$ – ZanathKariashi Feb 24 '13 at 22:59
  • \$\begingroup\$ While not part of the core game, prestige classes are part of the core rules books. And also part of the core game in that Prestige classes from the DMG were used in various adventures. \$\endgroup\$ – aramis Mar 1 '13 at 20:42

Having played both versions, 3.x got rid of my 2 big hatreds. 1) THAC0 (defined below), and 2) no more "do I want a big or a little number?"

Task: Lift the portcullis to escape the castle. 2e: Roll a d20, if it is below your Strength (and the portcullis's weight is less than your Strength's bend bars/lift gate stat), you succeed. 3e: Roll a d20, add your Attribute bonus/penalty and compare to the target number.

Task: Putting the pointy end of a sword into the bad guy: 2e: Do you have proficiency in the weapon (or weapon group)? Roll against THAC0 (To Hit Armor Class 0). You roll d20, subtract the roll from THACO (so a roll of 19 and a THAC0 of 15 = -4). if you hit an armor class smaller than the targets, you hit. 10 is an unarmored human. IIRC, Plate mail is either 0 or 2 AC. 3e: Do you have the appropriate feat to use a sword?, Roll d20, add your attack bonus, compare to the target's armor class. Bigger number wins.

Task: You get hit by a dragon's breath, and don't want to die (you could choose to not save vs. a spell effect). 2e: Roll d20 vs. Breath Weapon. 3e: Roll d20, add your Save (Reflex or Fortitude based on circumstances), compare to the DC of the breath effect.

In 2e, you had Proficiencies instead of most skills/feats.

Weapon Proficiencies were awarded based on your class. Fighters got more at first level and earned new proficiencies quicker. A proficiency was for a single weapon type (long sword, quarterstaff, etc). In the Fighter's Book, they introduced the concept of broad and narrow groups. For example, a fighter could devote 1 Proficiency slot to longswords, 2 slots to the Long Blades Tight group (Bastard Sword, Katana, Longsword, Scimitar, 2-handed sword), or 3 slots for the Blades broad group (Bastard Sword, Cutlass, Dagger/Dirk, Katana, Khopesh, Knife/Stiletto, Longsword, Main-gauche, Rapier, Sabre, Scimitar, Shortsword/Drusus, 2-Handed Sword, Wakizashi). Non-fighters could NOT take groups as I recall. Fighters could also devote proficiencies to fighting styles. You had Single weapon, Weapon and Shield, 2 Weapon, and 2-Handed Weapon styles. They typically gave you either +1AC, or +2 to hit, or minimized weapon speed.

Outside of combat, you got non-weapon proficiencies. Think something similar to the Knowledge, Profession, and Craft skills in 3.x. Some that I recall (I'm away from my books at the moment) are Fire-building, knot tying, cooking, weaponsmithing, etc.

Another big difference is that different classes advanced at different rates. I once played a game where the DM gave us "starting XP" of (I think) 200,000 XP. It caused my fighter to be level 9, a Thief to be level 11 (I think???), and the cleric was a third level.

If you want to convert a 2e mod into 3.x, I'd start here. Personally, I'd take all the setting stuff and just redo the stuff with 3.5 monsters/stats.

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  • \$\begingroup\$ It's already beyond awesome I must say! 2e looks like a headache at some parts. I am also curious about the attributes, since, if I recall, there were upper limits for stats? \$\endgroup\$ – Maurycy Jun 17 '11 at 19:07
  • \$\begingroup\$ Sadly, your personal favourite is just wrong. AD&D fall damage is 1d6 per 10', capping at 20d6. Perhaps you're thinking of the (unrelated) massive damage rules? Or an old DM's house rules? \$\endgroup\$ – SevenSidedDie Jun 18 '11 at 15:16
  • \$\begingroup\$ @Seven, heck, you are right. It appears my DM had some sort of house rule to save for half damage. It sounded too much like an inside joke, and I never questioned it. Edited. \$\endgroup\$ – Pulsehead Jun 18 '11 at 17:50
  • \$\begingroup\$ @maurycy AD&D2E had No real upper limits past CGen, but no ability to raise stats save by use of wishes or magic items, either. \$\endgroup\$ – aramis Jun 20 '11 at 20:31
  • \$\begingroup\$ @Maurycy It was. At times, we spent hours debating rules or what check should apply in a given scenario, or how something in a book could be applied in game. The more experienced you were as a player or gm meant you probably had more abilities to ways to leverage rules because most of them were at least partially subjective. But for some that was part of the fun of the game. I think 3.5 is in someways a different game than it was in 1 and 2. 2 really just added some features to 1 that were not well defined. 3 and 3.5 changed the mechanics of the game. \$\endgroup\$ – user2015 Jun 21 '11 at 16:39

I think (and this is just a guess) the basic mechanic changes resulted from a change in orientation with regards to the kind of experience developers were trying offer. The following is just my guess based on perceived emphases in the games through the years.

If I recall correctly, DnD Basic developed out of a tabletop war-game. This meant simplistic rules, simple rolls, and two dimensional characters. A fighter was a fighter; an elf was an elf; etc. The goal was simple: go into the room, kill the monster, get the gold. From there, modules added narrative. Overtime, the focus began moving away from kill/loot/rinse-n-repeat to narrative immersion.

Out of this seems to have come AD&D. No longer was the simple system able to contain the diversity narrative demanded out of players. They needed more ability to customize characters. More spells. More weapons. More classes. (Dragon Magazine really helped here.) The proficiency system allowed players to choose skills beyond what their classes allowed their characters. And not all classes were created equal. Some classes needed high qualifications, like the Paladin, Monk, and Ranger. Only the best stats could qualify for the superior classes.

Interestingly, the players' emphasis on "character" rather than "level" seems to have come out in the general rejection of certain later rules (and this is based on what I vaguely remember from Dragon Magazine letters). For example, in the survival guides (Wilderness Survival Guide and Dungeoneer's Survival Guide), we found rules for such things like jumping. In short, the higher the level the greater jumping ability. Players seemed to reject it because it simply didn't make sense within the context of narrative character development. What does level have to do with the ability to jump farther? Back then, I don't believe that players saw levels as connected to or a reflection of a character's personal development.

The emphasis in AD&D on narrative immersion seems to have increased with the popularity of the Draganlance Saga. I seem to recall that the Chronicles and Legends even hit the NYT Best Seller list. Players wanted to participate in something like that. The game and its mechanics were simply changing to adapt to that demand.

I argue that video games and MMOs changed the demand again. I believe that 3.0 was an attempt to start to capture some of the feel that video games gave players. I sense that there is more emphasis on leveling up in 3.x than there was in AD&D. Note that leveling happens quicker. And when you compare powerful NPCs in their AD&D versions and their 3.x versions, the AD&D version seems to be of lower level. Ninth level used to be "name level" (go get that Wizard tower, castle, or guild and bring in followers); in 3.x the equivalent may be 15-20. Apparently, players came to accept that everything was tied to levels. The skill system ensured that anyone of any significant skill would necessarily be of a higher level (hence, the need for NPC classes).

Gear received a new emphasis and became more readily available. No longer would one have to find the magic weapons and armor on adventures and questions. They could just take their gold to the market and pick up whatever was available. Players felt higher level character with enough gold were entitled to better gear, and the system was built to accommodate that.

With the move away from narrative character development toward MMO-like leveling adventures, we saw a move back to equalizing characters of equal levels. One no longer needed to have sufficient stats qualify to be a more power class. All classes were of equal power, accessibility, and advancement difficulty. Balance became more important. Now, the main way characters became special was to become more powerful through levels so that their skills could improve and they could enter a prestige class. (Note: one could argue that the skill system allowed for more customization than the AD&D system; I argue the opposite, that characters were more customizable through the diversity of classes.) The system (now influenced more by MMOs) was starting to move back toward the simplified D&D Basic, which was based on tabletop wargaming.

And, if I may move beyond the original question, what about DND4? Well, I don't play it. I don't have any interest, so someone else would have to answer that. From what little I've seen, though, it appears that they've really tried to turn the tabletop RPG into a tabletop MMO. If so, it brings us full circle: a version based on a wargame.

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    \$\begingroup\$ I think a lot of what you wrote is accurate as far as opinion goes, however I disagree with a bit of what you wrote. 1. It seems that Gygax wanted DnD to be a "War game, about individual people", so the charachter story and dev was there from the begining. 2. The rejection of the jump rules, I think had more to do with turning everything into a complex table look up, and not being able to remember /know how to resolve these questions quickly. 3. I think its still based on charachter, but now dev is in the realm of fluff, not "unbalanced" mechanics. \$\endgroup\$ – GMNoob Jun 19 '11 at 9:31
  • \$\begingroup\$ D&D "Basic" was a streamline of the original boxed D&D... the first basic (Holmes) was 1977; original D&D was 1974 release (and copyright 1973). \$\endgroup\$ – aramis Jun 20 '11 at 20:33

Another big difference (to me at least), between DnD2 and DnD3 was the loss of "historical gods and monsters". I remember I used to go through DnD2 monster manuals looking up different Egyptian and Norse gods and associated mythological creatures. The various "default" game worlds seemed to be based on Earth's mythologies, and not these entirely new worlds.

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  • \$\begingroup\$ FWIW, there is the Deities and Demigods book that has listed out the "standard" D&D pantheon, along with the Olympians, the Pharoaic, and Asgardian pantheons (and a few others). Most of the monsters/mythological critters I can think of are represented in one of the Monster Manuals. \$\endgroup\$ – Pulsehead Jun 19 '11 at 21:41
  • \$\begingroup\$ 3x had gods as monsters to fight? didn't know that \$\endgroup\$ – GMNoob Jun 20 '11 at 4:50
  • \$\begingroup\$ Not sure if you can fight a god or not. I'm sure you can cross the swords with avatars, etc. But I've never been in a situation where fighting a god was in any of the games I played/DMed. \$\endgroup\$ – Pulsehead Jun 20 '11 at 12:54
  • \$\begingroup\$ yeah, in second edition I remember gods being just "high level monsters", that's what stuck with me at-least. \$\endgroup\$ – GMNoob Jun 20 '11 at 14:05
  • \$\begingroup\$ @GMNoob Except in the Planescape campaign setting, where it was explicity stated in... I think it was "On Hallowed Ground," that just being around a real god would be fatal for mortals. Of course, I imagine some GMs interpreted this as a guideline that only applied to lower level characters... \$\endgroup\$ – GMJoe Jan 20 '12 at 15:01

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