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Camarilla

Let's say, you are an open Camarilla member actually sent by Sabbat. The odds are very high that you are Blood Bound to someone, maybe mutually, maybe not (after all, that's what Camarilla is infamous for). This will make it a hard decision to give info to Camarilla enemies. After all, you understand that it may get killed those who you are bound to. If bound to noone, that may look very suspicious. I can imagine such a character being a spy, but not really for long, he would get caught in a single chapter, and recruiting more spies would be very hard because of that.

I thought about participating in Vaulderie as a possible way to fight the Blood Bond, but it is a risky practice. If a spy cell is present, it may be easier to hide the Vaulderie, but if one cell member is caught... And not even mentioning having to go outside to take Vaulderie, it's suicidal.

Sabbat

Now let's say that you are with Sabbat officially, but try to spy for the Camarilla. You have to participate in Vaulderie frequently, which ruins any existing Blood Bonds, and makes you interconnected with more and more Sabbat members. Once in a while, you will simply be unable to take any actions against the Sabbat, at least the part you are infiltrating, and are likely to become a real Sabbat member. If you don't participate in a Vaulderie and actively avoid it, you will live a very short and unhappy unlife.

Both sects

Of course, Madness Network or SchreckNet could do the job, but they are both limited and as far as I know info gained this way is normally not fully shared with the Sect.

So, what am I asking about:

  • Canon examples of spies (and by "spy" I actually mean a mole or a sleeper agent) from any canon books, which also tell how did they fight supernatural ways to control them (Blood Bond, Vinculum).
  • Mechanics that would allow to avoid mentioned restrictions and be a successful spy.

I am not interested in a complete list, it would be too big, though the more examples I get, the clearer things become.

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    \$\begingroup\$ @HeyICanChan Agreed, this seems to be more about moles or sleeper agents specifically rather than spies in general. \$\endgroup\$ – Oblivious Sage Aug 7 '16 at 13:01
  • \$\begingroup\$ @HeyICanChan Yes, exactly, it's about moles. I add this to the question. \$\endgroup\$ – Baskakov_Dmitriy Aug 7 '16 at 13:05
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Clearly any techniques of spy craft will work on any vampires in the same way they work on humans: ideology, shame, revenge, and greed pretty much cover it all. These techniques are out of scope but you can be found easily. there are literally hundreds of such methods used everyday in real life.

One of the most common might be the "enemy of my enemy is my friend": So, group A and B are both Sabbat and both hate each other. Prince Y of the Camarilla contacts A and seeks a temporary alliance to mess B up. What could go wrong⸮…

Vampire have access to mystical powers: Dominate and Presence, used both in conjuncture, can achieve complete control over a person in such a way that the person does not remember being controlled. Thus, a vampire could condition another to write a journal of what they are doing. A repository of what they feel, what they do, who their friends are, and hopes for the future. The writer then sends a copy to their master and forget they did so. A perfect spy who does not even know they are a spy.

Note that RAW does not quiet support this: You can make it work but it is akin to putting a round peg in an oval hole. In my view, disciplines were always more than discreet powers and their use could be morphed with enough mastery and training. Your mileage might vary.

With this in mind, a sleeper personality might be implanted in a young vampire, ready to take over on the right trigger a la Manchurian Candidate.

To answer the first part, I am not aware of any sleeper in either sects within the published material. However, it's been years since I read them so could not be remembering.

And because a good conspiracy theory is always welcome: You know that the Sabbat and the Camarilla were created by the Elders as tools to distract the younger vampires from finding out they are just food? Thus it is entirely possible that the Vaulderie is not as efficient at breaking blood bounds than is believed… Some elders within each organisation have a good knowledge of what is happening in the other.

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  • \$\begingroup\$ Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat. \$\endgroup\$ – mxyzplk Aug 9 '16 at 21:19
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It's been a while since I looked at the rules in any depth, but I recall their being a merit to be immune to Blood Bonds, and that it extended to Vaulderie. Should that trait become known to the character's true faction, I could see the distrust it instills in them(Camarilla elders/Sabbat packmates) make it even more likely such a character gets tasked with infiltration.

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    \$\begingroup\$ The merit you speak of explicitly mentions that public knowledge of this attribute of the kindred is (to paraphrase) "a quick way to get dead." - an infiltration mission would be a suicide mission. \$\endgroup\$ – Tritium21 Aug 10 '16 at 7:04
  • \$\begingroup\$ That was kind of my point. ;) "If he comes back from the Sabbat, at least we know he is less likely to be co-opted; if he doesn't, oh well." \$\endgroup\$ – Uueerdo Aug 10 '16 at 16:02
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If you are actually a spy for Sabbat, you likely meet your packmates once in a while and perform a special vaulderie, which destoroys your blood bonds.

If you spy for Camarilla in Sabbat, vaulderie does not necessarily mean you become a Sabbat. First, it takes a special kind of vaulderie to destroy blood bonds, at least according to some of the books. But even with no blood bonds persons still have their agendas, views, likes and dislikes, they still may want to destroy Sabbat. Vinculum does not replace your free will, it just makes you like those guys more, but you do understand it's a feeling imposed on you by supernatural means and you can actively fight it. Makes for a great drama. But not as much as as participating in Sabbat atrocities while following the path of Humanity does. I imagine living night to night among inhuman monsters with blue and orange morality is much more of an obstacle to a Cammy spy, especially a neonate one, than vaulderie would be.

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  • \$\begingroup\$ Downvoted. 1) In this case, which I already mentioned, you will get caught easily. Spies don't meet their friends in person in such an obvious way (at least good spies don't). 2) Any kind of Vaulderie destroys blood bonds (as of V20), weakening them with each Vaulderie. Any kind of Vaulderie makes you more and more attracted to your pack. 3) The spy does not really have to be on high Humanity. 4) Even though all of the mentioned can make for a good chronicle with a great chase in the end, it is still not how a long-term mole can sit in any of the sects. \$\endgroup\$ – Baskakov_Dmitriy Aug 10 '16 at 10:40
  • \$\begingroup\$ What obvious way? What about vaulderie requires it to be obvious to Camarilla? 2) you never said in your question you want answers based on V20 only with no sourcebooks so it's kinda bad to downvote based on that, 3) I didn't say it has, 4) you have too many assumptions on how spying must work but since I couldn't read your mind I couldn't base my answer on that. Your downvote is assholish \$\endgroup\$ – Sejanus Aug 10 '16 at 11:24
  • \$\begingroup\$ So what? There's but a handful vampires in a city with millions of people and they aren't normally followed 24/7. \$\endgroup\$ – Sejanus Aug 10 '16 at 11:27
  • \$\begingroup\$ 1) Because you need to meet your Sabbat friends in person. Or your spy cell. 2) I did not say this -- feel free to add a book quotation. But you didn't do it yet (that's the main reason I downvoted). 3) That was about Sabbar atrocities 4) I presume, it is pretty obvious that I am not going to count a suicidal spy who lives just a few nights before being revealed. \$\endgroup\$ – Baskakov_Dmitriy Aug 10 '16 at 11:30
  • \$\begingroup\$ But you do understand that spies do not meet their contacts only in your head? In real life and most of the fiction that's what happens all the time? And after such response to me trying to help you, I assume you don't think I am going to bother providing quotes or helping any further. Normal way of asking quotes is not "Downvote!" but "Hey that's interesting, I didn't know it before, could you please tell me a source?" \$\endgroup\$ – Sejanus Aug 10 '16 at 11:33

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