# Throwing an Earthbreaker (Thunder and Fang) and dual-wielding

This is my first time playing Pathfinder (or any D&D-related for that matter) so I'm still learning (we'll start next week). I already asked a ton of things to the GM and this one was a 'first' so he didn't know how to reply. He said he'll look into it but before that (and to help him) I decided to ask here. Sorry for the wall of text!

We will play 'Rise of the Runelords' and I'm creating an Shaonti bloodrager. Based on the lore of the race and my idea of the char, I decided to went with the 'Thunder and Fang' style of fighting, which basically means using an earth breaker plus a klar. Mind you the earth breaker is a two-handed weapon, and the klar is something like an Asssassin's Creed hidden-blade (so it's attached to your hand), but it's not hidden lol.

The background story of my char (that was wrote before knowing about feats and stats and stuff) have the char throw that earth breaker at an enemy, misses it, and having to use the klar to finish it off. Pretty cool (6 pages long, love wall of texts lol).

So, after that I went to the char sheet and trying my best to see if I could make that kind of fighting style works. As you guys would say, I'm asking for anwsers RAW, if that's possible (but RAI would be nice too).

I know this table already about wielding 2 weapons:

• Normal penalties: –6/–10
• Off-hand weapon is light: –4/–8
• Two-Weapon Fighting feat: –4/–4
• Off-hand weapon is light and Two-Weapon Fighting feat: –2/–2

I'm planning on getting the Thunder and Fang feat too.

It would make the earth breaker be treated as one-handed, and the klar as a light weapon. Since the prerequisites for this feat involves Weapon Focus on both weapons, that would reduce the penalties to a pretty inoffensive -1/-1.

Nice! Here are the questions:

1. BEFORE getting the Thunder and Fang feat, the earth breaker is still a two-handed weapon for me. Does that means I won't be able to actually dual wield? The klar would be attached to my hand but would be completely useless, unless I decided to drop (or throw) the earth breaker?

2. Based on this question, throwing a weapon not designed for that implies an -4 penalty. It's a full round-action for two-handed, and a standard-action for one-handed. When I get the Thunder and Fang feat, I 'can use an earth breaker as though it were a one-handed weapon'. Does that apply for throwing rules? (like, will it become a standard-action?)

I already read a ton of posts here about throwing non-usually-throwable weapons, but this one seems different too.

My bloodrager will probably learn the spell 'Returning Weapon' as soon as he can, so think of this like a king of the mountain hammer-throw (wc3 lol).

Thanks!

• Welcome to the site (and the hobby)! You say you will "learn 'returning weapon'" - do you mean the feat Returning Throw? Or were you thinking of the magical weapon special ability Returning? – Adeptus Aug 12 '16 at 6:11
• @Adeptus, thanks! I mean this spell: Returning Weapon. Since bloodragers can learn some spells starting at lvl 4 (and that's absolutely awesome), i'm totally looking forward that. – Fiote Aug 12 '16 at 11:54

## A typical creature that lacks the feat Thunder and Fang or similar can't employ simultaneously a typical earth breaker and klar

The earth breaker is a two-handed weapon, but the "traditional klar counts as a light wooden shield with armor spikes[, and the] metal klar counts as a light steel shield with armor spikes." The description of the light shield includes this: "You strap a shield to your forearm and grip it with your hand. A light shield's weight lets you carry other items in that hand, although you cannot use weapons with it." Thus the typical you—for example, you with only two hands and no Thunder and Fang feat—just cannot use any two-handed weapon (like an earth breaker) while, at the same time, employing a light shield (like a klar).

However, a creature can wield an earth breaker designed for a creature one size category littler than the wielder as a one-handed weapon (e.g. a Medium creature wielding a Small earth breaker) or even two size categories littler than the wielder as a light weapon (e.g. a Medium creature wielding a Tiny earth breaker), but when wielding such an inappropriately sized weapon the creature suffers a −2 penalty or a −4 penalty on attack rolls with it, respectively, and, of course, the weapon's damage is reduced substantially.

(Note that I don't know what the training montage looks like for the feat Thunder and Fang, but I suspect it involves a lot of standing around and looking confused. That is, the instructor says, "Okay, take this klar and wield this earth breaker," sending a murmur through the assembled barbarians. One barbarian trainee says, "Um. Can't, dude. It doesn't work that way." The instructor hits the trainee with an earth breaker wielded one-handed, follows up with smack from the klar, and says, "Now. It. Does." Or maybe Medium warriors just train with Small earth breakers to start? No matter: such training is outside Pathfinder's traditional scope anyway.)

## A creature that can employ an earth breaker as a one-handed weapon can throw the earth breaker as a one-handed weapon

Unless there's a special restriction on the ability that grants the capacity to use the earth breaker one-handed—and there's no such restriction listed for the feat Thunder and Fang—a thrown weapon is thrown with the same effort as it's wielded. But a thrown weapon not intended to be thrown (that is, a weapon with a range increment entry of —) suffers from additional limitations, the most significant being the inability of the typical creature to throw more than one per round even if it can draw a new one after the hurling the first, although the −4 penalty on attack rolls with it can be a drag, too.

Thus a wielder that's using an earth breaker one-handed can throw that earth breaker as if it were a one-handed weapon yet lacking a range increment: the wielder takes a standard action to hurl it, the wielder suffers a −4 penalty on the attack roll, and the weapon possesses a 10 ft. range increment.

If a creature wants to hurl multiple earth breakers in a round, one way is a combination of the feat Quick Draw and the several +1 throwing earth breakers. Visually that is pretty cool, but the feat commitment to do so well and the unreasonably high expense will put this particular tactic out of the reach of most creatures.

• Small earth breakers do 1d10, while the medium ones do 2d6. So I assume I can simply wield a small earth breaker (since I'm a medium sized race (human)) while I work my character to get the thunder&fang feat. That's good enough! I'm not a powerplayer so simply being able to keep the character style even losing some attack power is perfectly fine for me. Although that implies a -2 penalty, so I'll need to check if I would be able to actually hit anything on the first levels, lol. I do not want to hurls multiple earth breakers lol, I only have one! But thanks to covering that too :p – Fiote Aug 12 '16 at 12:14
• Hmm... If my earth breaker is enchanted with Winged Sword effect, what would change? "This special ability can only be placed on melee weapons. A melee weapon crafted with this ability gains a range increment of 10 feet and can be thrown by a wielder proficient in its normal use." It seems I would get a 20 ft. range now, but would the penalties change? – Fiote Aug 12 '16 at 12:16
• @Fiote Casting the spell winged sword on a weapon that already possesses the weapon special ability throwing causes the two identical weapon special abilities to overlap not add. That is, the weapon's range increment remains 10 ft., and it can now be hurled twice as normally. (In other words, having no particular improved effect.) – Hey I Can Chan Aug 12 '16 at 12:39
• But the earth breaker does not have the special ability throwing (or does it?). And I noticed that Returning Weapon can only be casted on 'one weapon that can be thrown'. So I guess I kinda NEED to cast Winged Sword before even casting Returning Weapon? – Fiote Aug 12 '16 at 12:45
• Instead of two +1 Throwing earth breakers, how about one +1 Throwing Returning earth breaker? – Adeptus Aug 12 '16 at 13:25

Being a two-handed weapon means that you will not be able to dual wield an earth breaker without the Thunder and Fang feat.

The feat is mostly about using the two weapons together (earth breaker and klar) but the first sentence of the Benefit section...

You can use an earth breaker as though it were a one-handed weapon.

... doesn't put any limitations on it. So, it's not "use it as one-handed only when you are dual wielding", it's "use it as one handed in all conditions".

This would include when throwing it.

(In fact, it would also include dual wielding a pair of earth breakers... but at the higher, non-light penalty)