New to Pathfinder, so I apologize in advance if the answer to this is tremendously obvious!

I am playing a level 1 human oracle with the Lore mystery and the Friendless curse as listed in the Pathfinder SRD. The pertinent text for the curse is as follows:

[Y]ou gain your Charisma bonus to Sense Motive checks and saving throws versus spells and spell-like abilities of the enchantment school, in addition to your Wisdom.

The base Will save for a level one oracle is +2, and I have a Charisma modifier of +4 and a Wisdom modifier of -1. So if I were to make a Will save against a spell or spell-like ability of the enchantment school, my total Will save bonus would be +5, right? So far so good.

However, I was also planning on taking the Self Delusion feat to make up for my crappy Wisdom modifier. The crunch reads:

You may add your Charisma modifier, rather than you Wisdom modifier, to your Will saving throw bonus.

So again, assuming I were to make a Will save against a spell or spell-like ability of the enchantment school, what would my total Will save bonus be? If my Charisma modifier replaced the -1 for Wisdom, I'd effectively be doubling my Charisma modifier, giving me a whopping +10 to my Will save at level 1.

That seems very off, so I'm thinking I'm misinterpreting this or missing some obvious rule that prevents an ability modifier from affecting the same save twice. If the +10 is indeed the actual total, I'll likely end up switching to a different curse.

Any input would be greatly appreciated!

  • 1
    \$\begingroup\$ Remember that the +10 is only for saves vs Enchantment Spells and SLAs, not any other effects. You'd be at +6 for regular Will saves. You'll be very difficult to Charm or Dominate, but intimidation and generic fear effects, as well as generic Mind-affecting effects will not be subject to your 'double Cha bonus'. That's not particularly broken, IMO, but YMMV. \$\endgroup\$
    – Chemus
    Aug 27, 2016 at 4:41

1 Answer 1


Stacking Bonuses From Different Sources

The Friendless curse is a separate source from the Self Delusion feat. Both bonuses have no listed bonus type. The magic section says that

Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source.

This is the general rule for stacking all bonuses. However, for Pathfinder, an ability modifier has been ruled to be the same source, so is used once in such calculations.

...An ability bonus, such as "Strength bonus", is considered to be the same source for the purpose of bonuses from the same source not stacking. However, you can still add, for instance “a deflection bonus equal to your Charisma modifier” and your Charisma modifier.

Your bonus from Cha would remain at +4, even considering the curse. If you could get it as a typed bonus, 'equal to your Charisma modifier', as given in the above example, then you could use it a second time.

  • \$\begingroup\$ @Owlglass Although I answered very quickly, and I'm very glad you feel that mine is the answer, consider leaving the question marked as unanswered for a period of time; you might get a different, or higher-quality answer. This can be better for the quality of the community's answers, overall. \$\endgroup\$
    – Chemus
    Aug 27, 2016 at 4:51
  • \$\begingroup\$ This rule might be an issue. \$\endgroup\$ Aug 27, 2016 at 7:37
  • \$\begingroup\$ @HeyICanChan, Thanks; I'd not seen that. I tried to find a rule, rather than a ruling, but failed so far. I'll fix it. \$\endgroup\$
    – Chemus
    Aug 27, 2016 at 8:19

You must log in to answer this question.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .